MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > High-Performance Blades

High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-15-2018, 02:51 PM
M&J's Avatar
M&J M&J is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Cal
Posts: 843
Thoughts on 440-C these days?

What are your thoughts on 440-C these days?

I've gone through most the ATS-34 stock and have strays of 01, D2 but a good amount of 440C on hand.


__________________
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-15-2018, 06:03 PM
epicfail48 epicfail48 is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Springfield Mo
Posts: 95
Buying or using? If buying, AEB-L is loads cheaper and seems to be more friendly to work with. Using? AEB-L is loads easier to sharpen, to me, and seems to take a better edge. I dont think that 440c is bad, after all if it was it wouldnt be as common as it is, but i do like AEB-L a lot more when it comes to stainless
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-16-2018, 07:57 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
I use it sometimes from what I ahave been told it got a bad rep because of the other 440 steels....but at the same time I deffinitly wouldn't call it a great steel its good not great steels like the cpm steels especially cpm s35vn are much better.....but if you have it use it!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-17-2018, 07:54 AM
WBE WBE is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 484
I would call one of the great steels, with a cryo treatment. If a steel is easier to sharpen than another, that means it has less abrasion resistance, and you will wear the edge faster.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-17-2018, 08:38 PM
M&J's Avatar
M&J M&J is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Cal
Posts: 843
Bought up some of a retiring maker's steel many years back. He had about 250' and roughly down to about 150' at this point. I've liked working this but haven't used it in years now. When I send steel in if they offer cryo treatment I option that. Been pleased in that regard.

Working up a knife and getting them cold shouldered because this isn't the trendy steel has me wondering. Maybe time to do a dagger or similar...


__________________
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-18-2018, 01:28 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
440c is deffinitly better with cryo but then so is most stainless steels. I have a liquid nitrogen container so I cryo all my blades....from what I am told most stainless NEED it especially the higher end steels but even with the few stainless that can be done without liquid nitrogen they always benefit from it wich Is why I cryo everything
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:19 PM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: San Antonio Texas
Posts: 163
The point of the cryo LN2 (and even sub zero dry ice slurry) is to minimize retained austenite in a steel after it is quenched. What does that mean to us as makers? Put simply, a slight boost in hardness. Usually 1-3 points HRC. When making knives, it is always advisable to get as much martensite as possible during the quench, and then temper down to desired hardness.

If one were to quench 440C without using the sub zero or LN2 quench continuation, then the max HRC you're likely to get is around 59HRC or so (if memory serves me right). That's a good hardness, no doubt, and quite serviceable. However, there is going to be some amount of retained austenite in that blade, and RA is a soft generally undesirable structure in blade steel. If one were to add the sub zero or cryo post quench (before any tempers), then the RA will be minimized, and the final HRC will be several points higher. 62 or 63. You could leave it at that hardness, or temper down as desired.

I had some kitchen knives from Boker (Prestidges or some weird name like that). They had 440c, and I was impressed with their performance. MUCH MUCH better than the other "generic" stainless steels out there like 440a or X50 whatever from China. 440c is no slouch.

(Some steels that are VERY highly alloyed will not have decent RA conversion even with extended soaks in LN2!!!! They need the secondary hardening tempers (~1000f) to eliminate the RA, but that causes different issues for a knife blade. Think steels like T15. I sure wouldn't want to be the guy putting a hand rubbed finish on steels like that! Count me out. CPM M4 is bad enough!)

Last edited by samuraistuart; 06-22-2018 at 12:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-23-2018, 07:24 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
yeh the liquid nitrogen soak in a way you can think of it as a extension of the actual quench converting more austenite....I will say there is a difference between CRYO (liquid nitrogen) wich is a little more than minus 300 deg F a dry ice slurry is only about half that of liquid nitrogen some steels that is ok for but some steels the dry ice will do nothing....I have a liquid nitrogen tank so I never use dry ice.


as far as those high tempers I never use that like you said it brings up other issues I agree with that BUT what I don't agree with is that liquid nitrogen wont do anything for high alloy steels I have found quite the opposite that the high alloyed stainless really needs the cryo bath early on I did a couple cutting test and found that the difference was so much I never actually tested it again and cryoed all my blades no matter what some of the simpler steels don't need it the complex steels do need it but I look at it like it may not always be needed with all steels but it will never hurt so I do it on everything
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-01-2018, 09:47 AM
Andrew Garrett's Avatar
Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nampa, Idaho
Posts: 3,584
440C isn't very 'fashionable' these days. None of the 'extreme' guys will be beating down your door for a knife made from 440C because it isn't the latest or greatest wonder steel.

That said, 440C is a very good steel with well established heat treating procedures, and I use it on stainless versions of my push daggers.


__________________
Andy Garrett
https://www.facebook.com/GarrettKnives?ref=hl
Charter Member - Kansas Custom Knifemaker's Association
www.kansasknives.org

"Drawing your knife from its sheath and using it in the presence of others should be an event complete with oos, ahhs, and questions."
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-11-2020, 04:44 PM
argel55 argel55 is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chandler, Oklahoma
Posts: 238
I don't see any problem with 440C. It is a good knife steel. I thought it was a little gummy grinding but other wise held a good edge. Sharpest knives I ever made were the 440 that Jim Barbee heat treated for me. Found out years later that he was cryoing and his heat treat oven was built by NASA scientists.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-14-2020, 06:03 PM
M&J's Avatar
M&J M&J is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Cal
Posts: 843
I attempted to sell some and it doesn't draw much interest. Some of the suppliers do sell a little bit though largely no. Been pondering a dagger.

What would you use 440-C for?


__________________
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-18-2023, 03:28 PM
M&J's Avatar
M&J M&J is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Cal
Posts: 843
I sent out a batch of 440-C this past December and user reports that the knives perform very well. I was reading Jay Fisher's write up on 440-C here because it is passed over for the newer CPM releases.
https://www.jayfisher.com/440C-Love-...om_knifemakers

To me in a car analogy 440-C is the Toyota of steels. Not the trendy talk, it doesn't do the 1/4 very fast yet when heat treated properly it has good performance per $. It is well proven for decades. This steel is user accessible that sharpening is not hard in the field or with a good sharpening system available. It doesn't cost an arm leg to buy it either. That's how I look at it and for the price point it results in a quality blade.

I'll use up the 440C here and I'm just about at the end with maybe 30-40 feet of the 1/8" left. The 3/16" stuff is making these up. I saved a bit to make a couple of daggers as a challenge project:



Thanks to Larrin Thomas for his published papers on the subject. Was great reading the CM 154, CPM 154, S series comparisons. My brain may explode though.


__________________
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-20-2023, 07:32 AM
Crex's Avatar
Crex Crex is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA and/or Hanging Dog, NC
Posts: 3,574
Was my go to back when I d## stock removal. I wish it forged well but it does not. Much maligned but still the "Toyota" as you say. Funny thing, mostly it's only the serious knifemaker that can tell it's performance diff from the newer, better, one size fits all SS's. I'd use it on any of my personal user blades without a second thought. In general, average knife collector and end user would only think the newer stuff is better because of the published hype and could never tell by performance.


__________________
Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith
Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild, Charter Member
Knifemakers Guild, voting member
Registered Master Artist - GA Council for the Arts
C Rex Custom Knives

Blade Show Table 5-J
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-20-2023, 02:28 PM
KenH KenH is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Baldwin Co across the bay from Mobile, AL
Posts: 129
I'm not the expert ya'll are, but I agree that 440C is a good steel. I've only used in a couple of knives but those worked good. My thinking is that AEB-L or 14C28N are about the two best steels for the buck around these days.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-20-2023, 02:34 PM
M&J's Avatar
M&J M&J is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Cal
Posts: 843
The 440-C finishes really nicely which for old school I find a hand rubbed satin to be appealing.

Was reading about the narrow temp range when attempting to forge it. That doesn't sound easy and having a bar crack with all that time into it can be frustrating. I have a bar from Devin Thomas that is 440-C/302 or was it 304 in a "spriograph" and "vines roses" pattern. Some of that was left over so it will be part of this 440-C batch for heat treat.

One of the local guys has a forge and we d## a 1095 and 1085 combination for my first forging experience. Ran out of time so it still needs more work though looking forward to making a knife with that first forged piece. Had a fun time doing this.


__________________
Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
440c, a, aeb-l, ats-34, back, bee, blade, blades, boker, ca, cold, common, cpm, cryo, dagger, edge, forged, hand, knife, knives, made, post, silver, stainless, steel


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is it these days ? Foxjaw The Outpost 16 11-14-2007 10:31 PM
Away for a few days...... Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey's Workshop 1 03-03-2004 11:09 PM
Ya know..there are some days... jph The Outpost 24 05-08-2003 08:25 AM
What are y'all into these days? Dana Acker The North Carolina Custom Knifemakers Guild Forum 8 05-24-2002 01:21 PM
I was only gone for a few days! Terrill Hoffman Knife Photography Discussion 7 07-23-2001 08:09 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:40 AM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved