Beveling

[Jacktheknife]

Gentlemen,


I have carried my knife making skills {such as they are} all the way from profiling, drilling, heat treating, sanding off forge soot and scratches, and handling but for one thing, beveling. I have 1095 steel in 3/32" and have a file guide coming from Jantz supply, but I have never made a plunge cut or beveled a blade. I read here that a chain saw file is a good way to make a plunge cut and when I get my file guide in the mail I'll be ready to finish fourteen blades I am working on. I need to order sanding belts for my Grizzly 2" x 72" sander anyway and was wondering if 320 grit will work for beveling. I have already sanded one side of seven blades to 400 grit and am confused about beveling, suspecting that I should have beveled before sanding. But again my file guide is on back order.

If I use 240 grit for beveling it will scratch up much of the sanding I have already done. If 320 grit will grind a bevel it will scratch the blade and require re-sanding too, just not quite so much. Should I have beveled before doing any sanding? If so I'll stop sanding and wait on the file guide.
And I tried the search button to research beveling but it came right back here to the forum. Help...


Thank you...


Jack the Knife

[Ed Caffrey]

If I'm understanding "beveling" correctly, you're referring to tapering each side of the blades from spine to edge? If that's the case, it's something that is done right from the beginning of rough grinding. It's done a bit differently, depending on if you are forging or stock removing.

Either way, once the blade it nice and flat, I use a 50 grit belt, you're removing a LOT of matieral, over a large area. Using finer grit belts like 240 or 320 just make the job much longer and difficult. Personally, I grind with a 50 grit belt, then jump to a 120 just prior to heat treating. After heat treating I go back to a new 50 grit, take everything down to nearly complete, then go straight to a 400 grit and sometimes a 600 prior to hand finishing.
ALL hand sanding takes place AFTER finishing up on the grinder. By the time I get there all I'm doing is "clean up" work from the grinder.

[Ray Rogers]

Well, Jack, I've tried before to get you to make one blade at a time, at least until you get everything down. Looks like you're gonna have to rework 7 blades.

From previous posts, I'm thinking you have completed the HT on your blades and are now about to grind the bevels onto your hardened profiles. That's great, I like to do things that way myself. You'll need to mark a center line on the edge of the blade and then grind each side down to the line so that the edge is about .020 thick. To do this, you'll start as Ed said by using a 50 or 60 grit belt (I like 60). A good ceramic 60 grit belt will do a lot of grinding - you could probably do all 7 of your blades with just one belt (because I'm thinking those are small blades). And Jack, grind both sides on a blade before you move on to the next blade - don't try to do one side of all 7 (or 14). You'll find that one side grinds pretty easily but the other side is harder to control (strong hand, weak hand). You want both sides to be as similar as possible but they don't have to be identical on all the knives. It's much easier to get both sides the same if you keep a rhythm going on one blade rather than trying to come back to one later and match whatever grind it may have.

As for the plunge cut, there is at least two ways to handle that and neither of them is a chainsaw file if you are talking about a hardened blank and you're planning to do the grinding on a belt sander. Chainsaw files are for when you plan to file the bevels by hand.

One method is to put your file guide a little bit forward of the place you want the plunge to be, then use your 60 grit belt right there at the guide to plunge all the way down to just a little short of the center line you scribed. Then proceed to grind the bevels from there. After the 60 grit grinding is done, move the file guide back that extra little bit and grind with 120 grit, followed by 220, followed by 400. Each successive grit will dig it and refine the plunge a bit more pushing it back into the file guide. Once you're done, you can hand sand at 400 (or finer) if you are trying to make a very, very nice satin finish or leave it as it is if you're shooting for a utility finish.

The other method is almost identical to that last one. Put on the file guide and the 60 grit belt but don't plunge (or plunge only a little), just start grinding. As you create the bevel the plunge will form. Everything else is the same.

Or, you could simply make your knives without a plunge at all. Lots of small utility knives and kitchen knives don't have a plunge and the get along just fine without it .

To begin the grind on a hard profile, run the edge of the blank against an old 60 grit belt (while the grinder is running, of course) edge down as if you were trying to sharpen the blade on your platen. The purpose is to break that sharp 90 degree corner off the blade profile. So, what you have now is a blank with about a 45 degree edge on it. Now put a new belt on the grinder.

Grind the bevels with the blade held edge up in your bare hands. You grind edge up so that you can see the center line. If you didn't take that square corner off before you try this the corner will remove all the grit from your brand new belt. Dip it in a bucket of water if you start to feel heat build up in the blade. Hold your elbows in and grind the length of the blade by swaying your body left and right - work from the plunge to the tip in one long motion. You can work in one direction or both directions according to how you feel about it. Don't try to do the entire bevel in one pass, just grind like you were trying to make the edge about a quarter inch wide, then a half inch, and etc etc until the bevel is as wide as you want it.

And again, do it one blade at a time. By the time you've done all 14 you should have some pretty nice blades and some fair blades. Try to do one step on all the blades and you'll probably end up with 14 fair blades and no really nice ones. Or, you'll end up with 14 really nice ones but it will take you 5 times as long because of all the going back to improve the work on the first few blades when the practice has allowed you to get better on the last few blades ...

[Jacktheknife]

Ed Caffrey,


I believe I am on the verge of learning how to use my Grizzly to do most of the work.
And yes by beveling I mean 'tapering' after heat treating.
I was told by master blade smith 'Dallas Dan' {don't remember his last name} that a blade will not heat uniformly unless it is all the same thickness so I profile, drill and then heat treat. I have however never tapered a blade, I assume it is done by eye.
{I am talking about tapering a blade which has already been hardened and tempered but nothing over 1/8" thick}

Hand sanding with 400 grit auto body sandpaper will remove 220 & 240 grit scratches, but I am amazed you use 400 grit to remove scratches as deep as 50 grit, but then you are using your machine, Wow, I am really onto something now!
The finest grit Grizzly has is 320 grit. I remember when I was making 'Knives from Junk' the 60 grit made great big scratches and I have a few old 60 grit belts and the grit looks like gravel!
I use 100 grit to clean up the mess after epoxying the handles on but nothing finer. Blade smith Dan said he uses sandpaper because it doesn't cause more problems, doesn't make big scratches to have to get out later and I am talking about Roman short swords!

Worn out 220 - 240 grit sanding blocks get the forge soot off and new 220 - 240 grit sanding blocks the scratches out. 400 grit cleans up the scratches from the 220 and 240 grit but then I am hand sanding with auto body sandpaper.
If one can get 60 grit scratches out with 400 grit by using the machine then surely I can get 100 grit scratches out by using 320 grit belts on my Grizzly, finishing with hand sanding. {Remember my steel is only 3/32" thick}

The next order for sanding belts will be mainly 100 grit and 320 grit belts.


My table is 31" high. If it were lower and if I sat down I could see what I am doing better? My skinners are short three fingered handles with a blade of about 1 3/4", made of 3/32" steel.

I really appreciate the advice. Thank you very much.


Jack the Knife

[Jacktheknife]

Ray,


What is a 'Ceramic' belt? Grizzly has Silicon carbide.
And what do you use to 'mark the center line' on a blade? Obviously not a felt tip pen.
I knew to take the 90* corner off before grinding but I didn't know to grind with the 'future edge' pointed 'up'. It does seem easier too know what you are doing even if one can't 'see' through the bade.
I thought I was right on the verge of learning how to 'bevel' or 'taper' a blade which would enable me to actually finish a knife but I feel really dumb this morning. Let me read and re-read yours and Ed Caffrey's posts today. I'll order 60 grit belts too along with the 320's but you don't use in between sizes either?

Thank you and Mr. Caffrey so much. {Never mind a knife} I owe both of you guys a steak dinner and a case of good beer though.


Thank you...


Jack the Knife

[Ray Rogers]

Some guys sit, most stand. Whatever works for you. You may have to try different things with different belts, different kinds of belts. I, for one, can not even come close to removing 60 (or even 100) grit scratches with a 400 grit belt. Maybe if I used 4 or 5 of them I could get it done. But, I realize Ed has a good bit of practice and has developed his techniques carefully. By all means, give it a try but don't be too surprised if it doesn't work out as well for you as it does for Ed (but then again, maybe it will).

Forget buying belts from Grizzly. Look up Tru-Grit and get some good belts. There are very good reasons why some belts cost more than others. Whether you go with 50, 60 or 100 grit you're going to need a ceramic belt like a 3m Gold, or Norton Hogger, or Blaze Orange belt. They will cost more but they will last far longer and grind cooler and cleaner than less expensive aluminum oxide belts ...

[Ray Rogers]

I see we're both typing at the same time today, Jack so I missed that last post of yours. A ceramic belt is a belt that has ceramic particles to do the cutting rather than aluminum oxide or silicon carbide. As you know, ceramic is very hard and those belts will outlast the others by a big margin.

You mark a center line with a scribe. You can get an edge marking scribe from any of the big knife supply houses and maybe even your own local hardware store. It's just a tool that has a carbide point that can be adjusted so that it can be pulled along the edge of the blade. Some guys use drill bits laying on a hard surface to get the job done - try the Search on that. You need a thin line drawn, if it gets too thick it kinda loses its usefulness.

I believe it was Bob Loveless who first popularized grinding with the edge up. Now almost everybody does it that way because it just works better.

Yes, I use the 'middle sized' belts too. My sequence is 60, 120, 220, 400. If I need sanding beyond 400 I use sandpaper....

[Jacktheknife]

Ray and Ed...


Thank Y'all very much!


J. Knife

[Doug Lester]

You can also get belts from USA Knife Maker Supply, Jantz, or just about any other supply house. I've found Norton Norax Plus belts and like them a lot. I believe that they are a ceramic but, regardless, they seem to outlast the Blaze belts and cost about half as much. I use them in 36, 120, then 220 grit before I switch to Norton micron belts in equivalent to roughly 400 then 600 grit. After that I put on a Scotch-Brite belt for a satin finish. Being that you're new, and have a Grizzly that runs a bit on the fast side, I would recommend that you use a 60 grit belt for you initial grinds. That could protect you from grinding too much off which will lead to an aw, (bleep) moment.

Those belts are just what I use and there are other good one's out there. Just stay away from the economy belts. Just like people tried to tell me, they're more expensive in the long run. Another piece of advice. Don't try to force that last little bit of use out of your belts. It will slow your production and give problems with overheating. Treat you belts like they only cost $10/100 and as soon as you start thinking that the belt is slowing down, toss it and get a new one.

Doug

[rockhound]

wait.... there are machines that can do this?

[Pairomedicsfish]

The level of experience, open advice and patience never ceases to amaze me about this site.....guys, I am proud to be associated with the caliber of people found here.

[Brad Johnson]

Jacktheknife,

Be very careful, you are trying to grind 3/32 1095. A 60 grit belt will take off a lot of metal quickly. For thin steel I use a new 80 grit belt. Good luck!

[AUBE]

Be very careful with the fine grit belts...the Grizzly tends to run fast and since fine belts remove less material, it creates more heat. Being 3/32" thick steel there not much material there to work as a heat sink so that makes overheating even more of an issue.

I've used Ed's method of skipping from a coarse belt to a fine belt...it works very well for being able to identify deep scratches....but imo the process works better on a variable speed sander. I don't think I would try to remove 60grit scratches with 400grit at the Grizzly speed...the chances of overheating the steel is high.

If you haven;t done it already I recommend adding a ceramic platten to your sander....it reduces heat by a bit and the grinds end up smoother.

Personally I grind 40-60grit prior to heat treat, then a quick hit with 60grit after ht to remove decarb/scale and then follow up with 150. I try to get it as close to final dimension before heat treating as I can (but leave some extra to remove due to decarb).

If you haven;t tried them yet give cork belts a try....they work pretty good.