Stock Removal and Heat Treating

[AcridSaint]

Ok, I know that this will likely sound very silly to some of you, but please don't be too harsh. I just ordered 10 feet of 1084 from admiral steel, and when it gets here I'll be trying my hand at my first blades. I'm just a poor college student, I don't have a big place or a shop, and I plan to do most of my knife making outside with a few files, a dremel tool, and my brother inlaw's drill press.

The steel that comes from admiral is already anealed, which is a great thing for me when it comes to shaping and drilling, as I don't have a forge. However, it is not such a great thing for me as I don't *think* that there is any way for me to heat treat it... as far as I can tell from what I've read on Bob Warner's site, and the Engath website, and here, and anywhere else I can find, I have to heat my steel up around 1600 degrees, quench it, and then heat treat it around 425. Is there any way I can heat treat my anealed steel without a forge?

If I have to, I'll spend the money to make a propane forge and stick it in the neighbor's backyard, but I didn't want to do that until I was a little more confident in my ability to make a decent knife. On Bob's site he mentions that a forge is something you want to invest in if you can stick it out past a dozen or so knives, I plan to, but I'd like the first dozen to have a good edge too...

[Messinger]

Greetings nameless young person!

I'm also a newbie, so take that into consideration... but I would recommend you get a copy of Wayne Goddard's "$50 knife shop". It's only around $14 and you'll love it. He details how to build a little tiny forge from a single fire-brick (soft variety, not hard) and a little propane torch. This would be the perfect sub-$20 forge for a college student (IMHO). You could probably keep your whole forge opperation stored in a medium sized plastic tool box. I think that would be a good start for you. I was in your shoes only about 5 years ago so I remember (college - not knifemaking). The one-brick-forge will get you up and running, and if you wear it out you can build a new one for $5 or so. Best of all it's small enough to store in your trunk, your dorm, your sister's garage, Mom & Dad's porch, or where ever (see I remember what it was like!). I am sure that Bob Warner's comments about investing in a good forge setup are words to live by, but you are in a little different situation than the general audience.

-Ben

[doublearrow]

I was in your shoes last year. All I use are files and sandpaper and didn't have any way to get a forge built so I opted for 440c stainless steel that I could send off to get heat treated. Also I think there are a couple of places that will do carbon steel blades. Just a thought unless you were really wanting to do the heat treat yourself.

[Ray Rogers]

All of the above works fine and is cheap to do. You can also get the job done on 1084 if you have access to an acetylene torch. Nearly everybody knows someone who has an acetylene torch and, if you do, that's all you will need. Depending of the size of the blade, either heat the whole blade or just heat the edge up to 1/3 or 1/2 the width of the blade until a magnet will not attract the heated part and quench immediately. A propane torch is not hot enough to do this unless you use the one brick forge scenario ........

[AcridSaint]

Thanks for the replies guys, I just picked up a cheap propane torch at lowes, and am looking for firebricks or some ceramic alternative now... the people at lowe's all looked at me like I was crazy when I tried to explain that I needed a brick that wouldn't explode on me at 1600+ degrees... all I could find around there were decorative bricks, so we shall see what I can find this weekend.

Thanks again,
Cap Hayes

[Omega]

hey Cap
here's some ideas for ya, forge

burner

everything else

hope noone minds if i put up a link to their sites


Bill:evil

[SVanderkolff]

Not sure where you are located, but if you are loking for fire brick your best source is the local pottery shop. They use the fire bricks in thier kilns. In fact I built my heat treat kiln using plans from the local pottery group. They need to get up to the same type of heats that we do.
Hope that helps.
Steve

[Bob Warner]

OK, here you go.

First of all the 1084 I get from Admiral is not annealed unless you ask for it and pay extra. You may get a surprise when it arrives. But we have a solution for that.

If you know anyone that has a BBQ for cooking food outside that will let you use it, your in business. Go to the store and buy a pipe that is about 2' long ans 1/2" or 3/4" in diameter. Buy a bushing reducer that goes from your pipe up to about 1-1/2" and screw them together. You now have a forge. All you need now it find a hair drier.


Get you a good charcoal fire going and let it go until it burns down into a good red coal fire without a bunch of flames. Take your 1/2" pipe and push it into the bottom and center of the fire. Pile the rest of the coals around it. Then turn on the hair drier (do this first) then put it up to the reducing bushing and blow air in. The air will come out the other end, blowing hot pieces of coal dust and stuff out. You will see that it will get hotter. Put a couple cut pieces of steal (if not annealed from Admiral) into the fire and cover with coals. Get it up to a good cherry color by pulling one piece out and checking it with a magnet. When non-magnetic, put back into the fire, cover well and pull your tube out. Put the lid on the BBQ and let it set until the fire is out and the ashes are cold. Now you can file your blade shape.

After you are done making the knife, repeat the process but when you get to non-magnetic, quench in oil. Temper in a friends oven (you can bring a turkey and ask your friends wife to cook it for you and just slip the blades in with it).

You can also make a forge out of a pipe and a pipe cap. Use it just like a regular forge with your propane torch entering from the side. It will not be insulated but it will hold the heat enough to heat treat a knife blade. Without insulation it will not be fuel efficient but it will work.

[rabbit_skinner]

I am a newbie as well,This bean can forge
and a Home Depot torch work well for me
to heat treat 7",1095,blades and I turn it
upright to melt aluminum in for casting.
Bean can Photo
Rabbit_skinner

[Frank J Warner]

This bean can forge

The resourcefulness of some people simply astonishes me! That is quite the trick idea Mr. Skinner.

-Frank J Warner

[David Johansen]

Bob,

When you temper the knife in a normal oven, what temp do you take it up too? How long? How fast do you cool it. I have a grill and will try your advise out. Thanks,

[AcridSaint]

OK, first thanks to everyone who replied, it didn't take much convincing to get me to decide to build a small forge. I just picked up the bricks and clay and mortar, and I'll start tonight after work. It was fairly cheap, and I got a few extra bricks (and plenty of clay and mortar!), so if I make any mistakes I should be able to correct them.

I also wanted to thank Bob for the barbecue idea and for correcting me about the steel being anealed. I must have confused admiral with one of the myriad of other websites I've visited in the past few days. I was trying to figure out how to deal with steel that I needed to slow cool when I was working out plans in my head for the forge, then I saw Bob's reply. What a great idea, I can just heat the steel up in my forge and *then* cover it with the hot coals in a barbecue to aneal. I know, it may sound a bit odd, but I think that this will work a little better for me. Especially since I don't have to ask the neighbors if I can stick a blowdrier in their barbecue!

[Bob Warner]

To anneal, it would be a good idea to find a larger piece of mild steel that is thicker than the knife and heat it up at the same time and bury them both in the ashes. The mass of the other piece will help slow the cooling process even more and you will get a better anneal.

As for the tempering, I go to 425 for two hours, then test. Ajust as required to get the results you want.

[David Johansen]

Bob,

You mentioned testing the knife after you temper. At the risk of sounding like I know nothing of this subject, (Which of course I don't) once you temper how do you test the blade to see if it does what you want?

[Bob Warner]

The way I would do it if I were you and were just starting out is to make two similar knives. Heat treat them the same way at the same time. Afterwards, you can test one knife to destruction and see how hard it is to destroy.
If it meets your needs, finish the other knife.

After a while you will have your process down and only need to test your output with new steel shipments and, in my case, about once a month.