re: professional courtesy

[Osprey Guy]

I suppose in the this era of PC, we'll soon start seeing signs posted in the museums:

"Warning, the room you are about to enter contains artwork in the form of paintings and sculptures which depict nude men and women. Make sure your children have their eyes covered before entering..."


Sorry for the sarcasm...but this absolutely one of my hot buttons.
I can think of no reason why anyone of any age should feel uncomfortable viewing an artistic interpretation of the human body. Artwork depicting sexual acts are another matter altogether and the viewer does deserve a warning (please note, I said a warning, not censorship).
BTW- I do not feel that a nude or near nude woman, sitting or bending over, in any way constitutes art that is sexually suggestive.

My doctor is a deeply religious, orthodox jew. His particular beliefs forbid him to view imagery that is sexually suggestive. (I found this out the hard way years ago when I happened to show him a fashion catalog which was using sexually suggestive photos to help sell shoes...boy did he ever freak out!). Months ago, I carved a nude into the steel backspine of a small folder. I had it with me one day while visiting my doctor, and I was anxious to show him my new found skills in artwork. Still remembering the experience with the shoe catalogue, I asked him if he was permitted to view nude sculptures in a museum, he said yes. I then described my carving of the nude...a nude sculpture. I explained that it was done as an art form and did not depict any sort of sex act, and asked if he was permitted to look at it. With the understanding that this was art, he replied, "Of course"...and I might add, that he was very complimentary of my work.

I vehemently oppose all censorship. If children are raised with the right values, then they are capable of determining right from wrong without our having to screen all they see or hear. You can't always be with them and like it or not, if they want to see it they'll easily find a way. My daughter is 14 yrs old, and she's been taught values since she could crawl. I fully trust in her abililty to look at a nude on the handle of knife and appreciate the talent required to produce such fine art.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!


PS. I suspect this might be destined for another "mega thread"...Oh well, it was starting to get a little too quiet around here anyway.

[Drac]

Dennis,

Part of Tim's comment has to with a request I made of him a while back. I have no problem with nudity. All I had asked was if he would let someone know before entering a thread about nudity. I, as do other people, access the net from work and my company has policies against viewing this kind of material from work. I don't want to risk my job over something that if I knew it contains nudity I can leave that till I get home if I choose. It was never intended to call this work anything but art. I enjoy reading CKD thru the day and would not like to have stop because I would be afraid of losing my job.

This is always been a democratic forum and if the bulk of the members feel this is needs no changes I will go with this.

[edit] For the record I was not the one who was involded the other thread. At no time did I asked anyone not to post on the forum, only to let someone know before they enter the thread and that was one to one with Tim some time ago. Nor am I asking for CKD to add a policy for this matter. I have always enjoyed Tim's and other's work.


Respectfully,
Jim

[HermanKnives]

Dennis,

I couldn't agree more! It always amazed me that the people complaining about nude art claimed it obscene for religious reasons. So these people are telling God that he made us too ugly to look at?? That his creation of us is not fit for human viewing?? In my view THAT is the obscenity! Were these folks born with coveralls or a jumpsuit on? I could never understand this way of thinking. They must really feel disgust when viewing the artwork in the Cistine Chapel with those obscene paintings by Michaelangelo. Oh My GOD!! It really amazes me because God obviously doesn't feel we are to ugly and obscene or surely we would be born with fur or something to cover our so called "ugliness". I think that only the people themselves make the human body ugly and obscene and I feel sorry for them. If the pics involved showed people doing sexual acts I'd totally agree with them but for a simple beautiful female body I find them the ugly ones!
A question that has always puzzled me that maybe someone can answer here...If these folks breast feed their children, do they blindfold them so as not to see that obscene ugly breast at such a young age?

As you can see this is a very sticky point with me also and the pic that started this was a rear view of a scrimmed woman on an Easler knife. A view that kids can pretty closely see on most primetime tv shows nowdays.

[Bob Warner]

I think that since it does bother some people, a properly worded subject line could avoid offending a potential customer.

Besides, if someone scrimmed me naked on knife (it would be a BIG knife) you guys would surely change your views. You would WANT it covered up and warnings posted everywhere. Even I would want a warning before I saw it. I have warnings on the mirrors in my house so that I don't offend myself.

[Osprey Guy]

JIm-

Regarding the work thing and possible recriminations from your employer...

Point taken.

Tim-

Of course you know we are in complete agreement.

If kids nowadays were properly educated and exposed to all fine art, music, and literature from an early age, and at the same time taught the difference between right and wrong on a daily basis, there wouldn't be concerns about someone getting all worked up over nude images of the (wonderful) human form.

We teach our daughter by example...it has required a certain amount of work and constant vigilence (such as good manners at all times in the house, and never allow or condone curse words to be used in the house and/or in front of my daughter,...it's a matter of teaching concepts of respect and courtesy, that we respect her as she should respect us and others). She has learned good judgement and knows how to distinguish good from evil, right from wrong.

I signed on to be a parent,...if I want my values to be respected over those of her peers, the TV, the Internet, etc, I know that I need to spend at least 1-2 hours per day/night involved with my kid. When I posted the above response, I called Piper downstairs because I wanted to discuss this with her, and let her now why I was so upset. There was really no need...she already knows how I feel. (By the way Tim, she wanted me to tell you that she thinks your engravings are fantastic!)

Teaching values by example...It's paid off bigtime.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Osprey Guy]

Bob-

Nobody in this country has been promised that they won't be offended from time to time. That's sorta the point. We live in a country where we are allowed to offend without penalty.

This Fine Embellishment forum, more than any of the other forums, is about art. If the warnings start here, they will inherently spread to the museums, libraries, etc.

Although, perhaps we might want to make an exception for that big knife with the Bob Warner nude. LOL


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Tim Adlam]

Dennis,

Professional courtesy is not...Politically correct.

I gave Tim and Jason permission to post those threads and images.
Rich sought Jims approval before posting his thread.

Yes...some issues cropped up in the interim.

So...I discussed this with each person individually, and the "Professional Courtesy" announcement was the result of our united commitment to making this forum the best on the web.

No problem...we adapt.

All sarcasm aside...if you got the 5 of us in one place at one time...an unknowing individual would be lucky
to get out alive if they dropped the second "PC" label on us!

Tim

[HermanKnives]

Bob, the thought of you nekkid is quite scary! LOL So I do see some point to this post

I changed my attached pic with a link so people could choose whether or not to look at the artwork. To me this isn't that big of deal either and this way everyone should be happy, which is what these forums are all about. I really would hate to lose members over something so silly so posting a link instead of the instant view pic is not a big deal. I just wanted to explain my views on this touchy subject. I fully agree with Dennis on this as I explained earlier. I hate the PC generation and so many people that are so easily offended over such nonsense but I can also see their point if this is their true beliefs. So I hope this has solved the problem here and we can let it drop quickly and move on

[Tim Adlam]

Jim,

This is not about you or any other "regular" on this forum.

This is about the way we want to project ourselves in the business world.

Nothing's censored...it's just re-routed.

Hey!...makes a great topic for discussion.
We all share similar views.

Bottom line is...what do you guys want this forum to become?

Tim

[Osprey Guy]

I know folks will think I'm really blowing this out of proportion, but....

For the professional courtesy we speak of in this instance, I really do understand we're only talking about giving up what amounts to just couple of inches...

The problem is, those inches have a way of accumulating.

It always starts off with the best intentions...and it always seems to eventually wind up with someone making a law to "protect us" from ourselves...(Is it really so tough to imagine in the not so distant future, laws mandating that we post similar warnings...and who's going to be the one to enforce that law and decide what is or isn't offensive, and therefore requiring such a warning?)

BTW- Tim Adlam- I was not pointing the PC finger at you...I was speaking of the times.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Osprey Guy]

I might point out, that without any such laws, warnings, etc, look how we've managed to become The Forums known for the civility, enlightenment, and comeraderie with which we conduct ourselves.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[gravertom]

Well guys, I was one who e-mailed Tim privately about this. I did not ask anyone or anything to be banned, but did request some sort of discretionionary warnings be added.

There are either absolutes, or not. If we are to go by subjective opinon only, nothing can be deemd right or wrong, only "I do or do not like it personally.". Why draw the line at nudes then? Why not outright sex- acts, bestiality, whatever? Something is either right, or it is wrong. We can agree on that point, and still disagree over particular matters. If we do not agree on right and wrong as absolutes, then no meaningful dialogue is possible with respect to details.

Oftentimes, people who are outraged at other persons sensibilities can be just as particular with things that are important to them. Censorship, for example, is an excellent concept to illustrate this point. Some folks are so concerned about the possibility of any censorship, that any restriction at all on any type of expression infuriates them.

Why is their passion about cencorship any more legitimate than someone elses passion about their own concept of decency? In a subjective universe, one is no more valid than the other. Really, in a subjective universe there is no such thing as "valid" at all. There is only what is.

Why shield our children, or ourselves from anything? Why is it wrong to shield children from nudity, but right to shield them from open sexual behavior by consenting partners in a public place? What about their right to freedom of expression?

Since someone brought up God, I will mention a few things from his word. You can take it or leave it, but it is clear, and claims an absolute authority over all men, whether they acknowledge it or not.

Genesis 3: 7 " And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

Right after the entrance of sin into the world, nakedness became a problem. I would encourage you all to read Leviticus 18:7-19, and 20:11-21

Now I know many or most of you may reject this, and imagine that you have various reasons for doing so that seem to you wise and good. However, Jesus tells us why you reject his word, if you do.

John 3:19-21 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God."

I suppose some of you may be infuriated at what I am writing, but how can you object? Will you censor me?!! We see again, that many are for freedom of expression, but only the types of expression that they approve of. Consider the truth of the following illustration:

Someone is driving down the highway. Anyone driving faster than they, and endangering them, is "crazy". Anyone in front of them, driving slower than they, and causing them to be late, is an "idiot". Moral relativism at its finest!

I am not ranting for ranting's sake. I hope to correct misunderstandings about truth, warn some of you about things that can harm you,and,more importantly, to stand up for the honor of my God.

Sincerely,

Tom

[Tim Adlam]

Update:

A collector called me to find out when the "Bob Warner in the buff knife" would be available?...

[Osprey Guy]

I bet Tim Herman will volunteer the color engraving, but only if Bob will wear those fishnet stockings...


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Tim Adlam]

Dennis,

Thanks...I know you weren't calling me a sell-out.

You want to talk about fighting for inches?
You could just as easily been describing the anti-gun culture.
People who have it in for gun owners or businesses within that industry...(me)...have to deal with the same ignorance.

How do you address that?...be professional and try to educate.

What affects the gun industry and gun owners affects knife people too.
Not appreciating that...is what the anti's count on when trying to divide the camps.

In my book...if you don't support firearms ownership and the defense of personal property...
...you don't support the right to keep a paring knife in your kitchen drawer.

We have to fight the fight on all fronts.

Fight ignorance.

That's the BIG picture my friend.

We're not giving up anything here.