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  #1  
Old 05-26-2006, 06:55 PM
EdgarFigaro EdgarFigaro is offline
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Tips for charcoal forge welding.

Hey guys, first post over here at these forums, but I've been reading them a bit the last few days after coming across them.
Was wanting to get some feedback on bringing my little forge up to welding heats.
Using a cheapo barbeque I got at walmart. Had lined it with cat litter coivered with stove cement, not the best, was kind of a quick job but it works. Other day moving it though I kinda eradicated a bit cause it tipped over, but I'll just kind of dig me a pit in it, and such and see how that works. Might need to get some clay or some castable refractory to line it with.
I built this one for use at my grandfather's work shop. Not certain how long I'll be living hear nearby so that's kinda the reason for the cheapo attempt. The tuyere runs along the bottom with holes in the top for the air. Hairdryer powered. weee.

Anyway during the recent burn ban I had gotten some soft firebricks for a small stacked brick set up inside the shop (garage door open so nice breeze) since couldn't use propane or charcoal outdoors. Just to kinda of experiment I was taking the bricks and building a little enclosure over the top of my coals with a door up by the top for the project to be inserted through. Well it gets quite hot and pretty evenly heated. Get a nice flame shooting through the door and the cracks between bricks. Tried taking some pieces of scrap, sanding them, then heating to red and fluxing, and back into the fire. 'Bout the time the flux started bubbling I tried hammering them. They stuck, but not very well, striking them on the side breaks them apart.

So I'm wondering what I can do to get a little more heat. More air? More fuel?
After using it for a few, I was forging out a seax blade, and a steel guard for another knife, and I could just leave them sitting inside for a few and get a nice red colored heat without the air. Seems like it was working pretty well for containing the heat.

Just wanting tips for bringing it up higher. I'm wondering if more air might be what's needed to push the temp just a bit more. Or if maybe I need more fuel and more time to let it come up.

Anyway, tips would be great.
saw pics with Tai and others welding in a charcoal/wood fire, so thought be a good place to ask. =]

Thanks guys.


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Last edited by EdgarFigaro; 05-26-2006 at 07:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-27-2006, 12:42 PM
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DiamondG Knives DiamondG Knives is offline
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Beau

My first impression would be DONT DO IT INDOORS WITHOUT LOTS OF VENTELATION!!!
a forge is a huge Carbon Monoxide generator. Several Smiths have been overcome by it in the past. Audra Draper comes to mind as the most recent.

As far as getting your heat higher, wood ash can be used as a type of refractory, as well as fire bricks themselves. As long as you have a good BTU fuel, lump charcoal, coal, or even wood, with the proper amount of air, you should get suitable heats. Just make it where you will have a good mass of burning coals to work in.

Its noisy, but a shop vac set up on blow will give you LOTS of air. I used one for a while.

Hope this helps. Dont hesitate to ask questions, there is a good pool of knowledgable folks here who are more than willing to help.

Have fun, but be safe!!

God Bless
Mike


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Old 05-27-2006, 02:31 PM
toddhill toddhill is offline
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Beau, I'm not sure I totally understand your forge setup. I would insert the pieces horizontally into the fire rather than down through a hole in the top as it seemed you described.

It sounds like you're not heating your pieces enough to weld. The flux will flow and bubble at less than welding heat. To start out I would heat it up until a few sparks start to shoot out of the fire. Then you know it's hot enough. Once you get that down you can try at lower heats.

Remember the first hits on the pieces to be welded should be quite soft, then you increase in force as the pieces start to cool.

Once your pieces have stuck after the first welding heat, if you still have more hammering to do on them, heat up to welding heat again. You probably shouldn't try to unstick the pieces after the first welding heat. After a couple welding heats then they should be stuck permanently. Just my thoughts.

Todd
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Old 05-27-2006, 05:11 PM
EdgarFigaro EdgarFigaro is offline
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Okay I'll try heating a piece till it starts to spark to get an idea of it. I might also add a tiny bit more air to see if that helps.

My charcoal forge was always used outside the shop.
The setup grandpa has is a two car garage that's been divided into a shop and a garage with walls between and a small room in the middle for storage.

So the shop is it's own room with a sliding garage door he built.
The only forge I was using inside was my little stacked brick propane torch forge. We keep a fan going for circulation to keep it a little cooler, to creat ea breeze with the back door open usually, so it gets a pretty good breeze through there.

The charcoal was definitely used outside though.
On my forgebeque, I stacked bricks around the fire port to kind of make a little enclosure to retain heat similar to the design of the vertical gas forges with a door in the side. Maybe I can draw a little image and scan it in. It's basically a little house built ontop of the coals with the workpiece inserted through the door cept the door is just a little higher could make it lower though. =]

Most of my charcoal is small pieces too, been buying the lump from Ace and Walmart. Figured up that walmart has a slightly lower per pound price. Plus I can get a 10% discount. So probably keep buying it there. Can bust up the bigger pieces even smaller though, read that that can help.

Carbon monoxide would be nasty, definitely why I'm not doing the charcoal forge indoors, and the propane was on the bench right next to door with a nice breeze so that was okay as well. I'm pretty cautious about safety stuff. I like being alive =P


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  #5  
Old 05-28-2006, 12:54 AM
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Beau

Just a few suggestions, you may have done this, so if you did please dont think Im being haughty

Make sure the pieces are roughly the same size (not thickness just outside diminsions)

Make sure all welding surfaces are clean (ground on a grinder clean)
If possible, tack weld the pieces togather, if you have a welder available, weld on a handle
(rebar will work) It makes things much easier than holding it with tongs.

Bring it to a red heat and apply flux, bring to welding heat and flux again (just this time)
bring to weldin heat, strike LIGHTLY the first heat or two, get it welded, then you can increase the power of your blows. Be careful here, and wear eye preotection as well as a leather apron if possible, flying flux is HOT !! So no loose combustibles!!
Dont know what you are using for flux, 20 mule team will work, I like anhydrous, just a bit less messy, plus several recipies here on the forums. Just beware of the fumes, some can be very caustic!

I would suggest trying a piece of cable, its already togather, and it seems a bit easier to to weld for me.

Again Im not sure what experiance level you have, so please dont think Im being uppity here, just wanting to pass along some tribal knowledge. I know this forum was a HUGE help to me when I was starting out.

If I seem over stressed, its because i do some work as an Industrial Safety manager, some of the stuff we do is just plain scary !

Hope this helps!

God Bless
mike


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Last edited by DiamondG Knives; 05-28-2006 at 12:57 AM.
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Old 05-28-2006, 09:30 AM
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Jens Butler Jens Butler is offline
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Edgar, Being a charcoal using metal mangler myself possibly I can help. My forge is nothing fancy ( a truck rim , a brake drum some pipe and a few shovels full of fire place ashes and a 1/2 dozen fire bricks) but its gets hot. You mentioned having some fire brick, if you place a stack on either side of your firepot, you will have a nice deep trench, fill that with 8 or so inches of charcoal to build your welding fire. My rule for billet welding is Slow & Low : Slow air blast, slow temp increase , low temp ( no sparklers at all ) and low-power hammer strikes ( you just need to tap it ) Now I have screwed up many $ worth of steel in patternwelding attempts in the past . The 6 things that helped me the most were: 1 grind the stock clean , 2 mig weld the ends ( wiring the billet can work but I could never keep it aligned at welding heats ) , 3 weld a handle to it , 4 don't over flux ( flux aint glue), 5 let it soak ( even temp to the core is really important , this is where the slow air blast really comes into play, I've sparklered the outer layers of a billet before the core was even close to a welding temp ), and # 6 practice -practice- practice

Hope this Helps

Jens
Attached Images
File Type: jpg welding fire.JPG (60.7 KB, 57 views)


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Last edited by Jens Butler; 05-30-2006 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 05-28-2006, 08:40 PM
EdgarFigaro EdgarFigaro is offline
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I'll try getting some pieces closer in size and make sure they're nice and ground, I didn't grind them real well since I was just seeing if I could get them to weld wasn't really gonna make anything from them, so just ground most of the surface.

No welder so can't do that part.

One of the reasons I was wanting to see if my forge will reach welding heats was because I have a neighbor who was going to talk to a guy he knows who makes smaller cables from the large ones. Said he gets oil field cables and the like, so was going to get me some samples to try.

Using 20 mule team letting it kind of melt onto the surface.
Been reading lots of books and studying forums and sites, not sure what level of knowledge I'm at, but just really starting to get into knife making, don't really get to do it as much as I'd like either.

So do I want a pretty good amount of charcoal in my fire pit, and I've read that having it small helps as it'll burn faster. In that attached image, Jens, are you burying the piece in the coals, or above them? I was hovering mine above them, inside the enclosure I made with the fire bricks. I didn't think to try taking a piece and see if I could heat it till it was sparking.

Haven't really tried to weld a billet, was just some scraps to see if I could get it hot enough for the cable I should be getting.

I just kind of wonder if I'm getting enough air with my hairdryer. Might have to go to something bigger like you said, or maybe add another dryer =P I've got two haha.
Need me a better blower, but haven't wanted to put the money out on it until I know where I'll be living long term.

Kinda look forward to making some cable blades as I love the look.
Think I might just kind of experiment and see what I can find out from your suggestions.

I could make a trough like yours with fire bricks, I was just enclosing the whole thing, thought retaining the heat would help. had two for each side, one on end to enclose the back, then one laying across the top. then inserting the piece through the front.

Thanks guys.


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Old 05-28-2006, 10:14 PM
Ron Hicks Ron Hicks is offline
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Beau
Ive switched to charcoal and welded up 5 wrap around tomahawks a few weeks back.
A few things that might help.
You need you billet in the bottom side of the upper 1/3 of the fire - above is no good.
I dont know If you will be able to hear it over the hair dryer but
you can hear a hiss coming from the billet.
Get you something like a heavy thick wire like a coat hanger not copper wire
I have some old springs from an old easy chair
when you think the billet is hot enough touch the wire to the billet and see when it starts to stick when it does you might let it soak a little more - its welding temp when the wire sticks .

Tie wire is not heavy enough I think coat hanger might be- the stuff I use is about 1/8 dia.
I dont see why not just drowned it in flux cant hurt it will just clean it better maybe a few clinkers.
Mild steel the only way I got it to weld was to get it sparking some. High carbon steel no sparks . More carbon less heat
Keep reading about forge welding
It wont stick If its not hot enough- use natural lump charcoal
Ron
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Old 05-28-2006, 11:48 PM
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hammerdownnow hammerdownnow is offline
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Quote{The charcoal was definitely used outside though.
On my forgebeque, I stacked bricks around the fire port to kind of make a little enclosure to retain heat similar to the design of the vertical gas forges with a door in the side. Maybe I can draw a little image and scan it in. It's basically a little house built ontop of the coals with the workpiece inserted through the door cept the door is just a little higher could make it lower though.}

This sounds like you are useing the radiant heat from the fire. Be sure the billit is in the center of the fire with coals above and below. Excuse me if I took this wrong.


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Last edited by hammerdownnow; 05-28-2006 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 05-30-2006, 12:52 AM
EdgarFigaro EdgarFigaro is offline
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Okay so surrounded in coals, thought having the coals directly on the piece might cause problems with the weld and flux, sounds like that isn't the case. So bury it in and heat 'er up.


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Old 05-30-2006, 10:58 AM
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Jens Butler Jens Butler is offline
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Zacktly Try for just about the middle of the charcoal pile, you want the O2 to burn up before it gets to your billet. You want the heat not the oxidation & scale. Just for grins, try building yourself a nice deep fire and heat a peice of steel in different areas of the fire, on top, in the middle, and in the bottom. Observe how the steel scales differently, and how it heats differently in different areas of the fire (a rod shoved into the bottom of your fire will scale like a sonofa $&* and will turn inro a sparkler pretty quick) Also I have found that choping your charcoal into ice cube / dice sized peices will help reduce scaling and give a better more even heat. And if you are still getting to much scale, try duct taping some of the air inlets on your hair dryer closed to choke off some of the air, charcoal needs just a gentle breeze compared to coal. If at all possible practice welding with some leaf spring scraps or old files, carbon steel welds at a lower temp than mild steels does, and if you practice with mild you can end up burning/ruining your HC billets

Keep hammering

Jens


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Old 05-30-2006, 07:16 PM
EdgarFigaro EdgarFigaro is offline
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Well the two pieces I was originally trying to weld together was a small piece I broke off a piece of spring tooth which would be high carbon probably 5160 or similar.
The other was a cut off of...think it was my lawnmower blade. Maybe a medium carbon, it'll harden a fair bit, but it's not as low as mild.

I suppose what I was thinking was going about it similar to how you would with a propane forge. I had built the enclosure around the fire similar to the shape of a vertical forge. Then was placing it inside with the coals at the bottom. Heated pretty nice and evenly, so I'm gonna use that method to normalize this bowie I've got. Was trying to figure out how to go about it and I think that might be the best method for normalizing and heat treating it. No pipe wide enough for it to sit in, and that method seemed like it was getting pretty even.

I'll try building up some walls with the bricks and then making a deep fire and placing it in the coals, I figured it'd scale worse the closer to the tuyere as it's the air coming through.
Might try like you said though about putting a piece and looking at the scaling.

Thanks guys =]

I had just though placing the piece in the fire that the ash and coals and such would maybe cause problems with the weld, but I'm guessing the flux isn't as liquid as I think it might be. So flux it, bring it to heat while buried in coals and lightly tap.

=]


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Old 05-30-2006, 07:37 PM
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Good news. Glad I caught that. It is very hard for me to communicate what I mean thru typing. Thats why one day with an experienced bladesmith will shoot you far, far ahead. Still it is fun to solve problems on the forum. I remember when I first got two pieces to stick together. Woo-hooo! Carried it around showing everybody I saw. Got some funny looks. I have never made a weld in charcoal. I saw AlanL do it in a coal forge tho. Congrats on your progress.


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Old 05-30-2006, 08:48 PM
EdgarFigaro EdgarFigaro is offline
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Well I've not made a weld yet, but I'll be giving it a try thursday over at my grandpa's. I go over weekly to work in the shop with him. He's usually working on something as well, lately it's been a segmented wood vase, which was what the last thing was that I made before I decided to give the knives a try. So I've been at it for a few months. My last knife was pretty good I think =] Was quite happy with it.

Can view it here.
http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=5000

Two blades ready for handles.
Two ready for clean up, they were hardened last week.
A large bowie blade that I'm trying to forge a guard for then I'll harden it, going to maybe use the tang as a slight drift, then file the rest to fit.
Few others in progress.

Been mainly forging lately, need to get on a handling move =P
I need to forge me a sen as well. Be nice to try that out.

Most of what I had read regarding welding was done via propane, so kinda good to get info on the parts of the process unique to charcoal.
Nice to know that you bury it in the coals, had it in my head that's mess with the flux.

Also when burying in coals to ehat would it be a plus to orient it edge up so the heat can seep through the layers from one side to the other? I've read that it's good to do in propane.

Any other kinds of tips you guys can give would be great. Might have to give some of those welded axe/hawk heads a try at some point, would be fun.


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Old 05-31-2006, 08:32 AM
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Hey, Edgar.

It's been my expeience that pacing a billet edge-up in a solid fuel fire just gets crud in between the layers. Keep it flat, the heat doesn't care which way the steel is oriented. In a gas forge, an edge-up billet allows the flux to run between the layers and out onto the floor where it'll eat your refractory, so I can't say I recommend that, either.

In a coal fire, I weld in the top third to top quarter of the fire, with fire defined as "bits of burning fuel" not visible flame. You have to have some coals atop the billet to keep excess oxygen out and heat in. My fire is typically about 6 inches deep above the bottom blast, and I weld with one or two inches of coal above the steel. Well, I weld on the anvil, I just bring the steel to welding heat inside the fire...
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