Unusual Heiser sheath

[samg]

While cruising eBay, I spotted what seems to me to be an unusual shape of the stone pouch flap.
Check out item # 183557976098. I thought I was looking at a Clarence Moore sheath till I saw the rivits and stamp on the back, and the butterfly is different too.. The tell of a Moore sheath for me is usually the rounded stone pouch flap that catchs my eye first.
I'm having problems uploading photos right now, so would someone be so kind and upload a couple?
Has anyone any similar photos of a Heiser with a Moore looking flap?
Regards, Sam

[samg]

Sorry about those thumbnails. Still looking for a new image hosting app.
Heiser and all of the Randall sheath makers use a template pattern clicker I think it's called to cut the pattern of the part of the sheath being produced. In the case of this thread, the stone pocket and flap.
The flap on this one is distinctly Clarence Moore style. I wonder if this sheath was made at the time that Moore was getting out of the business, and Randall sent the ones he had made up out to Heiser?
Any opinions?
Thanks, Sam

[crutchtip]

sam -

In my opinion, that is a Clarence Moore sheath. I suspect, that Bo may have sent a couple out upon the switch from LH to RH post war, and Heiser apparently put their stamp and rivets on it.

Only an educated guess, but I don't know how else to explain it.

The tell tale sign aside from the stone pouch, is the butterfly, Moore all day long.

[Ta2bill]

Originally Posted by crutchtip

sam -

In my opinion, that is a Clarence Moore sheath. I suspect, that Bo may have sent a couple out upon the switch from LH to RH post war, and Heiser apparently put their stamp and rivets on it.

Only an educated guess, but I don't know how else to explain it.

The tell tale sign aside from the stone pouch, is the butterfly, Moore all day long.

I'm with Joe 100% on this one Sam. No other way to explain it...….Definitely adds to the mystique!

[samg]

Makes sense Joe. I'm use to seeing the Moore sheath with the inside of the butterfly being separate all the way back down to the bottom of the stitch like this one.



But here is one of Mitchell's Moore sheaths that looks more like a Heiser stitch



Here is a Heiser butterfly.



Here is another Moore model 7 sheath that has the separate butterfly where both stitch lines join at the bottom.



Your scenario makes perfect sense Joe. A Moore sheath finished by Heiser.

[crutchtip]

Heiser became pretty consistent real quick once they got the model down.

Variances in butterfly stitching are to be expected to some degree. I don't know if Moore had much in the way of dies to cut the leather to basic shape. He was not a wholesale leather maker of sheaths, which I think of as being a fill-in as to make an extra buck per the request by Bo. Harness leather was his trade, and the evidence of Moore's work goes up into the early/mid 50's on an as needed basis.

It is also known, that Moore quite often if not most of the time made sheaths to fit the exact knife. Very time consuming versus having dies and being more of a production type shop.

It would stand to reason, that if the sheath was sent to Heiser as a sample, perhaps once blade length had been standardized, they copied it, and when they were done it was logo stamped and rivets put in it so it would appear as what would follow.

[samg]

Kind of makes this sheath unusual. Too bad it's not in better condition :-(
I remember a discussion a couple years ago about whether Heiser had a Randall stamp for the sheath, or if the sheath was being sent to the shop and it was being stamped there. Clarence Moore made this one, and it was sent out to Denver, then Heiser had the ability to stamp it when it was already made. Unless just the unstitched pieces were sent out and Heiser stamped and stitched it after making a pattern of it. Too bad the pictures aren't clear enough to pick up the stitch pattern. At least it's not clear on my computer. We know that Moore and Heiser stitch patterns were different.
Like Bill said, adds to the Mystique :-)
Thanks Joe,
Sam

[crutchtip]

Not bad condition for a 40's era sheath.

Could have sent the pieces as Sam says, which I would assume would make it easier for Heiser to make the dies.

Hard to say, but an interesting theory.

[samg]

That makes sense Joe, that they would be sending pieces so Heiser can make a pattern off of it. I'm attaching a picture of the back of that sheet to see if someone can pick up thread pattern in the stitching.
I believe Clarance Moores stitch pattern was a little offset instead of straight up and down.
Sam

[samg]

After blowing up the stitch pattern on the sheath, it seems to be an angle stitch pattern to me, indicating that it was sewn by Clarence Moore.



Here is another clearer stitch pattern on a Moore sheath, another model 7, illustrating the offset stitch pattern.



Finally, A Heiser sheath stitch pattern.
So based on what I observe, it appears that Clarence Moore made and stitched the sheath, and as Joe said, Heiser stamped it and put throat rivets on it.

[samg]

Another tell that the sheath was completed by Clarence Moore is the fact of the edging done around the edges of the sheath. Heiser left the top of the of the sheath flat so you can see the tooling around the edge left by the foot of the machine.



This photo illustrates a Heiser sheath with a flat/tooled edge which is how they did their sheaths. Also note the absence of a rivet securing the horizontal keeper. The sheath featured in this thread has a rivet securing the keeper, as Moore did. Not sure if Moore secured ALL of his horizontal keepers with rivets. Perhaps Joe has knowledge of that.