Is it a bunch of knives, or "a collection" (pics)

Men,

I have a commentary regarding all this talk about "who's collectable?" and the reasons that are always given ... Oh, "this guy does this and that" or "these styles are the best" etc. But, I haven't seen one discussion to date about the finer points that I believe to be important in the actual net ownership of a collection. This is regarding the intrinsic nature of a collection itself. I want to highlight the position on the other side of the deal ... the actual guy doing the collecting.

Now, I'm not speaking as a salesman, trying to sell someone a knife. I'm talking about what's important to a man like myself. That is, not one of you have to tell me what knives to collect. I have an eye that is particular to my own tastes. I'm also of the mind that "until a man shows me that his portfolio of stocks has out-earned mine, then I should be making my own moves, following my own beliefs." After all, since there's all this talk and negativity about the high art of collecting as an investor, then maybe, just maybe I'm actually talking about a position that hasn't developed in the industry yet. However, that's the only reason Alex Whetsell will ever buy a knife. That is ... to me, they are "objects d'art". Every piece I buy is destined for display. None will ever be used as working knives. I'll go get a kitchen knife to scratch up, if that makes sense to anyone.

I buy customs for the "pleasure of art, collectivity and the ownership of one-of-a-kind creations." So, I'm not here to discuss the "user-ship" or other "mechanical properties" of the work. I understand that at the time of purchase, but as far as having something to chop a tree, slit a throat or whatever. I'm here to discuss "collection" and "value".

Now, along those lines, I would like to start a discussion that brings to light some of the points that guy's like me are looking for when building a collection. Two in particular ... "Item Credentials" and "Display-ability". To me, this is a "super value-added" feature. Actually, if the maker I'm considering does not address these points, then "regardless of how awesome the world thinks they are", I view their works as sub-standard", from a collection standpoint.

Now, having said that, I want to pick on one of our leaders as an example. I want to use some images of the knife of his that I have in our AV collection to demonstrate how important the credentials of the knife can be to the support of it's perceived value and display properties.

Then, what I would like for some of us to do is to discuss how we package our works, prepare them for presentation and how to improve the inherent value of the piece that we take so much time to make.

My point being ... "sell a man a knife with a cleaning rag, sheath and spec sheet, and he's bought a knife from you". But, "sell a man that same knife with precision photos, officially signed ownership certification, serial number verification and prepared for display" and you've entered an entirely different arena, in his mind!"

I would venture this ... if you don't see the value of my point: Give me the same knife ( one with, and one without the presentation materials) and I can sell the "supported knife" for twice the price as the unsupported knife ... if you can't see value in what I'm leading into, then you're not who I'm reaching out to to help bring upwards in this game of ours ...

Here's what I mean ...





Now ...
Let's see or hear about some examples you might use, how we can improve our collector value and the techniques we can employ to separate our work from all the standard "knife and cleaning rag" types.

Men ... this is very important to me, especially in our long range plans to bring those of you who are trying to take your markets to the next level. Whatever comes from this discussion should at least help us understand that there are differences in the thought processes involved, if you are aiming for high-performance out here. High-performance thinking requires that you view what you make in a totally different light ... even the way you package, support and document your work.

Proof ... I'll pay more for the above knife, because it represents someone's work who takes their creation seriously ... someone who feels the need to officially support and document the artwork that is ultimately destined for a collection.

Everytime someone views my collection, they know exactly how important the artist was behind it, because it's obvious in comparison!

Let's start a thread ... comments?


Alex

Alex,
I photograph all my work and give the customer a copy as well for their records/safe keeping.99 % of my knives are working knives,and none of them have serial numbers.As I become better known I may consider doing as Don.Or do you think I need to start now for future purposes?

Personally ... yes!

I think that it legitimizes the work. If it's something you see doing down the road, why not start now? The reason being, the knives that were first will become more important as your skills progress and your name grows.

Anyone else ...?

Alex

I am in the process of changing to an etched makers mark and serial numbering each new knife I make. I am currently waiting on my sales end to support this next step.

I currently provide photos and a letter with each knife invoice. The invoice has the serial # on it at present.

As Alex mentioned it is important to a buyer to have a perception that "hey this guy is a serious knife maker AND business man". What this does is simple. About 30 to 40% of all of my knife sales to date have been repeat customers or personally refered to me by a past customer.

Word of mouth is a powerful tool!!!

Alex,
Of course it helps, every little thing helps, some things more than others and some things are more important to some people than to others.
Anything that adds "provenance" is benifical to both maker and collector. While provenance means origin or source, the way I'm using it is to mean documentation that "proves" the origin of the knife. It also adds "history" to the knife. For example I got a knife at the last NY show that had already been photographed in a french cutlery magazine. I got the mag and got the maker to autograph the magazine under the photo of the knife I bought. Will it add to the value of the knife, I think so, although it may not. It certainly can't hurt.

Alex, you really give a guy food for thought. I'd say about 40% of the knives I've sold to this point are used, the others get displayed. While I try to make my knives aesthetically pleasing, each of my knives will work. Even the war clubs I've made, would be suitable for service should the occasion arise. While making the blades seems to satisfy the creative side of me, I've never considered myself an "art knife" maker, but a "using" knife maker. That my knives end up display pieces sometimes mystifies me. Perhaps it's time to change my way of thinking.

But let me ask you this, while I don't have a problem with your idea regarding a serial number on a knife, that is something that I tend to identify with a "cleaner," more modern looking knife than the type I make. Take the folder that opens my new website. I'm trying to picture how it would look with a serial number on it. I'd value your thoughts on this.

Another thing, the certificate of authenticity of Don's is really classy. I tried to forge one the other night, but I had no luck. What's a blacksmith to do? Perhaps you could suggest a software package, or maybe offer some online help for those of us who are digitally challenged???

But your points are good ones, and well worth pondering.

Dana, I'll make a couple of points here. Although my knives have serial numbers assigned to them which are documented on the certificates I provide, the numbers are not always present on the knives themselves. As you point out, they can be pretty disruptive.

Second point- I use Microsoft Word to do my certificates on pre-printed certificate stock. Within the reach of even the digitally challenged.

Dana, but it wouldn't be unusual to find a makers stamp on your knives, or you could do what Darrel Ralph does and hide the number so you can only read it when looking into the opened folder (it's stamped on the inside of the backstrap).

Dana ... what Don and Jerry said!

Alex

Good ideas, guys--thanks!

Dana

There's a whole range of pre-printed certificates, business cards and the like from a company called Geographics Inc in the USA, I think they call the range Geopaper. It's not cheap stuff but it can dress up some plain text.

Roger

Most knife makers don't give out certificates because they get thrown away. Turns out to be a waste of money. I tried doing it with the knives I sold and most people told me to "keep them" when I handed them the certificates.

Im not picking on Don here, but pointing things out because Alex used his certificate as an example.

A couple of the things need to be changed (just wording).

First: Date of Manufacture. This makes the knife sound like it is a factory or production knife. How about something like Completion Date or creation date, etc.

Also the serial number 0079. Does this mean this is Don's 79th knife over all or the 79th of this model. Also, putting 0079 in front of it tells you that perhpas Don plans to make 9999 of this knife. Lets face it 10,000 knives from any custom maker will take decades to produce. So there is probably no reason for the 0079. This just adds to the "form letter apperance. If you are going to custom make the knife, then custom make the certificate.

I do agree that documentation will add to the desirability of the knife.

One of the things I recommend to my clients is to get a hand written note from the maker as well as your picture taken with the maker and the knife. Certificates can be faked, these items can be manufactured as well, but it sure does take a lot of talent and money.

To collectors out there. As a matter of course, you should create your own documentation. Knife, maker, materials, price and delivery date should be the minimum. Add other categories that fit your collection.

For older knives, the sheath is actually equal to or in some cases more important than documentation.

It is a good idea to serial number the knives. I know George Herron has very good records on his knives because of this.

Also, knife makers do the collectors a favor and do not put the date of completion on the knife it's self. Some collectors will not want to the knife due to it's age.

Tom Maringer kept great records of his knives and dated each blade with year and serial number. Serial numbering my knives does not have any appeal to me, but if a maker happened to achieve some sort of Loveless-style legendary status, serial numbers would go a long way toward certifying authenticity. Just think how many Loveless copies are going to be floating around years after he leaves us.

A certificate might make a knifemaker look a bit more professional, but I don't think it is going to add value to a knife, unless it is after the fact and the knife becomes highly collectible. A hand written note is a nice touch and makes the knife a little more persoanl. For me, from a collector perspective, a good story to accompany the knife would hold more personal value. A story gives the knife personality and life. I think the same can be said for the maker, as well. I am finding personality is selling many of my knives for me. There are many makers out there, selling knives in the same price range as me, and I know their skills are much greater than mine, yet my customer base continues to grow. I have also been turning my friends down for knives because I want them to have something special from me. I keep telling them to wait. Alex, you got lucky

OK,I'v stayed out of this so far because I kept wondering what all this has to do with being a collection, or just a bunch of knives as the topic indicates.

Yet as I read I learn! I LOVE this place!!!!!!!

I don't want to have anyone thinking I am stepping on anyone's toes here, because there are interesting points made by all.

Les,
As ussual you have provided helpful insight to the topic.

While I do not believe that a certificate makes a certain knife worth more, I do believe that somewhere down the road it could make the knife easier to sell.
I do not believe that EVERY knife needs such documentation.
Alex looks for the package deal and has an appitite towards higher end knives and certainly has a point worth listenig to.
Any player who wants to succeed in this market should listen well to his words of wisdom.


Some people know that NO amount of paperwork or high-glossy's are able to increase the value of certain knives.
They see the knife as worth " SO MUCH" and that's that!!

There was a time when I provided documentation with every knife I made.Then I quit all together. Now I Provvide it on request or if I want to make a showpiece and don't care how long it takes to get the price I think it's worth.

I try to price my knives to sell because that is what we do.
If I want to hold on to one to show, I must raise the price or else it will be gone too quick.

It's hard to show a knife you don't have anymore.

I remember in the early years, I handed a customer the certificate that went with his new hunting knife.
He just chuckled and said it might come in handy the next time he forgets to pack the toilet paper.

I have (usually secret) an inventory number on every knife I make. My web page demands some kind of identification in order to be successful.However at a show, most customers simply remove the tag and thow it down and walk away.They simply don't care.

If all I made was expensive high-end stuff I could afford to provide all the frills, but I support a family of 7 with what I do.
I'm here to make knives.
My wife and senior partner(Jesus) has the responsibility for sales.(different dept.)
I tell them what I need and they tell me what they need, somehow it works because WE are still here.

I want to make ALL kinds of knives while I am alive on this earth.
I like making swords,but not much market there.Miniatures are cool,but they won't feed us either.Working knives sell great but with such stiff compitition in that market it is hard to compete there too.(speaking of profit)


Let's face it. We are all here today wanting to see something pretty and different. It's the show pieces we are really looking to see. We all want to play in that field, but few can afford to(either time or money)play in that field exclusively.

Honestly now, How many of us here today make our sole income on high-end knives,say four digits and up in price range.(what most would concider high end)

If I'm selling a 2000 dollar knife, I can afford the pic's and paper.
If I am selling a 200 dollar knife, WHY?
I am blessed to sell both.
If I am buying a 2000 dollar knife, I expect the frills.
If I am buying a 200 dollar knife, I want the knife.
Few customers even ask what the numbered tags are for.
( it is for my tracability only )

To some the paper is worth, to others it is words. Who is right? Who is wrong?
Thats why i have been quiet untill now.

Just this past weekend my wife spent several hours to provide a certificate for a customer that requested it for a replica of a knife I made that was featured in K.I. last Oct. The customer just wanted to prove that I was the one who made it.No problem, RIGHT?
We recieved nothing in return except a happy customer.
If he doesn't buy in the future, then we are out that time and effort. We believe that he,like most of my customers, will be back for more later,because,as I stated, We sent him away happy.

Which kinda brings me to my point(finally you say).

If this world we live in amounts to anything more than just pretty knives, It has to be the joy it brings us along the way. In my book that should go a long way.

My advise to the Newbees from an Oldbee is just that,
FOCUS ON HAPPY CUSTOMERS, they are ultimately are the one's who feed you.

Be blessed one and all.

I think that tracing the history of a knife is why many makers stamp there knives. Some do the 1 of 10 thing some number sequetially some by year I've seen stuff like 0156 as 56th knife of the year 2001. the point is to know what your dealing with. For some collecting is more important whatever it is that's being collected and they will want a low number, they fell it raises the value, in some cases it probably does. Numbering the knives you make, gives you a history, "see how much better I've gotten with #200 here as opposed to #2 from way back when". Like it's been mentioned it makes sense to number for some things and not for others. Personally as long as the marks don't detract from the knife I see no reason not to, and many reasons to do it.