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  #16  
Old 08-29-2016, 02:26 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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By all means use LaTrobe's spec sheet Dtech. Their 440c has some differing amounts of certain elements than another Manufacturer like Carpenter who uses more silicone in their analysis. The amounts aren't big, but there is a lot of stuff going on when you heat the steel and then cool it. There is the chromium that gets converted to carbide in with the iron carbide matrix. I was just going through my old HT notebook from my working days. Lots of specs from the steel makers in there and notes from Hinderliter HT in OKC. OK. who were a big help to me back in the day. Sent my first pro knife to them for HT in the 90s when I lived there.
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  #17  
Old 08-29-2016, 03:49 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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440C actually doesn't need Deep Cryogenic Treatment, DCT. Shallow Cryo treatment works better. Here is a statement from a HT site.

"440C: This high alloy martensitic stainless steel is a great performer. In SCT, its hardness is increased by 4%, and in DCT, by 7%. and by bringing this steel to a shallow cryogenic treatment, it has 128% improvement of wear resistance. This is a strange respondent in the cryo field, as deep cryogenic treatment does not significantly improve this steel performance, so it doesn't need the liquid nitrogen quenching of DCryo. In fact, in deep cryo, it only has a 121% improvement of wear resistance, so it has better results in shallow cryo. It's interesting to note that the standard by the United States Air Force for all parts made of 440C in any aircraft are that they are cryogenically processed with shallow cryo, and that has been the standard since 1995!"

I had notes about this which is why I did the double temper with dry Ice (SCT) in-between. It was Hinderliter HT who told me this. I left the 440c in a dry ice diesel fuel mix overnight and gained 1 RC point in hardness and wear resistance, plus toughness added. I was also wrong about the 2 hours in the LN, it should be 6 hours minimum and overnight is better.

Here is a link to a website that really gets into the in and outs of what happens during Heat Treat. It is very complicated and I remember the old 154CM and ATS 34 comparisons back in the day. I have some Japanese ATS 34 knife blanks from back then. 154CM and ATS 34 are essentially the same, but for a certain time period the US makers made an inconsistent bunch of it back in the 80s and early 90s. I have been grinding a knife and a bubble appeared in it. Turned a nice Knife into an oyster shucker for $25. Skim the articles and get what you can glean from it. No need to get into austemper vs. martemper cause you don't use those with high carbon stainless steels anyway and as with anything, take with a grain of salt.

http://www.jayfisher.com/Heat_Treati...old_Cryogenics

Last edited by jimmontg; 08-29-2016 at 03:55 PM. Reason: Mispelling
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  #18  
Old 08-30-2016, 01:53 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Ok so I am stumped obviously I did something wrong on that batch but I re hardened 2 of them and they came out fine, I am happy but I would REALLy love to know what I over looked so it doesn't happen again but I have spent a lot of time tring to figure out what happened with no luck.

jim....that is very interesting that dry ice would be a lil better than liquid nitrogen on this steel I kinda thought the colder the better but it may be similar to quench temps where 1875 is spot on but 1900 and 1850 are not as good I guesss there may be a sweet spot. I will check out that link and do a lil research on that but with all the effort and money I have put in the liquid nitrogen that is what ill use for now...although as you implied dry ice might be slightly better but I am sure that liquid nitrogen makes a big difference, when I started with 440 c I did a comparison a few times of with and without the liquid nitrogen and it definitely makes a difference...maybe at one point ill get some dry ice ad do a comparison. as you said dry ice increases wear resistance by 128% and liquid nitrogen by 121% my guess if you had a knife in one hand done with dry ice and another in liquid nitrogen in the other hand most people wouldn't know the difference
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  #19  
Old 08-30-2016, 02:34 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Thumbs down Oh no Dtech

The study was more about wear resistance and that little improvement in hardness isn't worth the trouble for you at all. I was just showing one of those anomalies. We didn't and they were not going to invest in LN dewars at my job, but didn't mind me making a super ice chest as we were not that busy at the time and it is my ice chest and my materials. 3" of styrofoam with a stainless liner inside and aluminum outside and a 4" thick lid. The inside dimensions were 40" long x 12" wide and 14" deep. It's at my son's house, we use it when we go to Fl. for bringing fish home.

A guy at work was happy to take the diesel fuel when we were done with it for his Ram P/u. There is an additive that kept the diesel from freezing I was familiar with from my truck driving days. Dry ice cryo takes time, like two to three days, hence the insulation. You put the quenched knives in and start dropping the CO2 in until it's covered in the stuff and then add more and forget about til Monday. My chest was so big because some machine parts required it. We used to make punches for iron workers out of A2 and D2. Never cryoed them because they would last too long and we wouldn't sell as many. Kind of like I bet they can make light bulbs that never burn out either.

Last edited by jimmontg; 08-30-2016 at 02:39 PM. Reason: misspelling
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  #20  
Old 08-30-2016, 03:21 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Dave,

You're right that most people - in fact, probably no one outside a laboratory - could tell the difference in 121% and 128%. Nevertheless, if you were concerned about it the simply suspend the blade above the liquid and you'll be in the range provided by dry ice......


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  #21  
Old 08-30-2016, 06:06 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Ray that is exactly what I thought of when I read jim's post..in the instruction book for the dewar it did say the liquid is at this temp and the gas inside the container slightly lower. I forget the exact temp and of corse I cant find the book. but yet that's what I thought to , the liquid level is still prity high in the dewar as I had it filled till it overflowed when the plug went it so once that level goes down a little ill do one leaving it only in the gas over night and do some testing to see if there is any noticeable difference either way
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  #22  
Old 08-30-2016, 06:51 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Shallow cryo takes longer Dtech.

Dave? Didn't know your name was Dave. This is just what I was told by Hinderliter and they said the dry ice is a 2 day affair. I double checked that recently and it is a long soak. Just like overnight with LN. TKS HT, Alex told me they always do overnight with LN.

I'm looking for a new Heat Treater for oil quench steels as TKS doesn't do them, only air quench. Mine decided to start his own company and argued with me about needing more than a 2 hour soak in LN this AM, so OK, fine.

Last edited by jimmontg; 08-30-2016 at 07:05 PM.
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  #23  
Old 08-30-2016, 07:22 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Ray! I bought some 0.076 thick A11 today and am going to make a super filet knife out of it. I'll let you know how it goes. Only came .076 or .252 and even annealed I don't want to be grinding or drilling that thickness, not to mention expensive as heck. Where the Hell is heck?
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  #24  
Old 08-30-2016, 07:35 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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yes jim my name is dave, this is making me curious but I am not going to buy and dry ice when I have the LN but as ray mentioned and I was thinking leaving the knife in the gas and not sinking all the way down may mimic the temp of dry ice once the LN evaporates enough to do that ill try it out and deffinitly remember to let ya know how it works out. from what you have been told its a 2 day thing? one other thing I haven't tried but I may do it soon as a test is putting it into the LN just for a few mins till it gets to temp then removing it and letting it warm to room temp then repeating the process 3-5 times. I forget what its called but I have read about people doing that has anyone here tied that or heard of how it works? JIM if your looking for another HTer maybe peters HT I have never used them as I have always done my own HT but I hear people talking about peters more than any thing else. let me know how that A11 works out I was reading some specs on different steels and it does seem prity good (although I am not a metallurgist I don't even understand some of the ingredients and how they work YET)
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  #25  
Old 08-30-2016, 08:14 PM
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Putting the blade in and out of the LN every few minutes might achieve the desired result but I don't see how it could be any better. More likely, it simply gives you many more chances to stress the blade and induce problems......


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  #26  
Old 08-30-2016, 08:23 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I think it's called snap ht. I'm not sure it is helpful with hi-carbon blades, more the medium ones if I'm not mistaken, but maybe I'm thinking of something else. As for Peters or Bos or Pacific. They charge much more than I'm used too. TKS is the less expensive until you add the so-called super steels. My A11 is going to cost a pretty penny.

Most of the big guys do not want 6 blades or 5 blades. They want volume. Hinderliter is still there, but under a different owner and their minimum is 10 lbs. of the same thickness and material now. $175, no cryo, but if you want a sword in stainless they have big ovens..

Last edited by jimmontg; 08-30-2016 at 08:34 PM.
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  #27  
Old 08-31-2016, 08:41 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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yeh thinking about it now I don't think I remember if the type of steel was pointed out with the in and out of LN. so maybe it works better on some than others. what I am doing seems to work so for the most part I think I am going to stick with that maybe at some point ill experiment but for now I think I am going to keep perfecting what I am doing then either experiment with other thing or learn a new steel, I have been thinking about getting a bar of cpm 154 cm next time I place a order and mess around with that,...
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  #28  
Old 08-31-2016, 10:50 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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154CM is a better steel than 440C from what I see.

Hardens harder as quenched and is a true air quench steel, though not as corrosion resistant as 440C, but I doubt you or most anybody would notice the difference. I made D2 knives that are around salt water and they haven't corroded, but all the high carbon stainless knives will corrode sooner or later in the wrong environment and not taken care of.

Just follow the HT instructions and you'll be fine with it as it isn't complicated like the A11 I'm going to try.
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  #29  
Old 08-31-2016, 02:13 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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yeh you right I did take a look at the spec sheet for the a11 its deffinitly more complicated.....I also have a piece of CPM S35 VN but its a small piece I got it from njsteel as a overstock item thought it was a good buy cause the price was discounted however its not enough to really do indepth testing of the HT as I would want to do when ever using a new steel....quenching is different than what I have been doing you can either "positive pressure quench 2 bar minimum" ray had described that as basicly putting it in a container and blowing compressed air on it at the right pressure. never done anything like that I would deffinitly need more info on that. or what seems to be a lil closer to what I have been doing is a interrupted oil quench if I understand that right you quench in oil (like I do with the 440c) but when it hits 1000 deg you take it out and let it cool in air the rest of the way ....I think?? even tho I don't have enough to do much testing as its enough for maybe 2 small blades or 1 decent size one but I may try to get some more info about wich quench is better for it and find out more about how a positive pressure quench is done and try it just for fun to see how it comes out...that steel is fairly expensive so I don't think I would use it much unless someone specificly aske for it or something like that but I figure I got this piece sitting around doing nothing I mide as well try to do something with it as I said I will need to do a lil more research on the quench first. any of you guys ever used it? if so how did it come out? from what I have read about it it is supposed to be really good steel for knives
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  #30  
Old 09-01-2016, 12:29 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Hey Dave check out Alpha Knife Supply's CPM-3V and see how that grabs you. Guy there says it's his favorite knife steel. 7.5 chrome with with moly and vanadium in good amounts. Sounds interesting. He says you can grind a thin edge because the steel is tough.

Last edited by jimmontg; 09-01-2016 at 12:33 AM.
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