Testing for the ultimate adhesive

[justice]

thank u Steve thats what i needed to know
this might be a crazy idea but what about letting the 324 cure in a small enclosed area with a lit candle or 2 to suck the oxygen out of the air. mabey in side of a big mason jar?


....justin

[SteveS]

Justin,

Sounds like it would work, but I don't think it's necessary. 324 is designed for a near zero glueline. The maker I talked with didn't use those measures. Clamp the sucker tight and forget about it.

I think the advantages of 324 are strength and speed. You can glue it together and start working on you knife pretty darned quick - great stuff for pros. The down side is cost, no gap filling, speed (better know what your doing - no second chance to reset!).

I'm becoming a real fan of 120HP. It's almost as strong, seals well, 2 hour work time. Perfect consistency. Easy to use. But I am trying to refrain from deciding until the tests are done.

Well I have high hopes still for K&G tho. We'll have to see.

Steve

[Kevin Dennis]

Wow what a great wealth of information you guys have provided.
Thank you very much for both your time and money spent .

I eagerly await the resulting spread sheet.

Thanks again.

PS

The last knife i made I used devcon 2 ton with no pins at all It held for a few days and one scale popped off no whacking or dishwashing needed. The whole knife was an experiment for me as I am very new to the hobby and it was my first attempt at making my own hand guard I used hickory from a new splitting maul handle I killed on the third peice of oak

I wont be using it again I I will be pinning all of my handles from now on.

[SteveS]

Kevin,

You're welcome. I can't wait to see the final results too!

I recommend not just pinning, but peening or bolts. A couple of these super-epoxies will probably work forever, but there's nothing so reassuring as a bolt!

Steve

[Coutel]

Originally Posted by SteveS

RE: 324


The gorilla ..... Don't use it on hidden tang knives.
Steve

Steve...Why not use it on hidden tangs?.....(ie rat tail etc).......am I missing a point somewhere?

[SteveS]

Kevin,

Tracy and I found that when it's in large chunks it's not hard. It's all bubbly and you can dent it with a finger nail.

I shouldn't say, "absolutely don't," because I haven't tested it. But it seems it doesn't make a real hard material when filling large gaps like you have in a hidden tang knife. Probably worth testing.

Personally I like acraglas for hidden tangs. It's designed for gap filling and high impact applications. Whereas Gorilla Glue is designed as an adhesive.

Steve

[TexasJack]

Steve, I saw your post about peening handle pins. An experienced knifemaker (we no longer say 'old') once warned me to avoid peening unless the material is stabilized. He claimed - by experience - that it was a pretty good way to insure that the handles would crack. He pointed out that the pins don't really hold the slabs on the knife, they provide lateral support to keep the strain off of the primary glue-metal interface. (All right, those are my words, but it's hard to reproduce pointing and using the word 'thingy' in any meaningful way.) If you think about it, there really isn't much surface area at the end of a 3/8 pin to hold anything.

I realize that anyone who uses bolts will object to what I just said, so let me limit the coverage of that to glued handles. The glue at the interface of the slabs and steel is the primary mechanism for keeping the handle on the knife. The glued pins help to keep the slabs from shearing when they are "whacked" laterally.

[SteveS]

TexasJack,

I used to think adhesives was a 'religious' topic. But I've seen some doooozy threads on pins, peening, and bolts.

I hear what you're saying. I haven't used much unstabilized wood. So I can't comment. My first knives were for kitchen work about three years ago. Pins and hidden pins, stabilized wood and Micarta, Brownells acraglas gel. Knives doing very well - but I'm deathly afraid someone will put them in the dishwasher. My wife did on one and the Acraglas failed.

I'd sure like to see the next thread test construction methods.

You know I can't fault ol' Loveless and his construction methods. Peening, solder, bolts, liners, epoxy.

Peening steel to steel
Solder to seal the joint
Liners to account for wood/steel expansion differences
Bolts to hold slabs and tang firmly together
Epoxy there to seal it up


Steve

[Kevin Dennis]

That one you won't get to see. It goes into the archive of skill progression box. I learned a hell of a lot from making it. I am having a lot of trouble figuring out how to get the ricasso( i think thats what you call it ) to look right/even. My grandad gave me his coal fired forge and about 70 lbs of coal recently
so i thought I would try my hand at some chainsaw damascus as per the tutorial here. When those blades turn out well I promise to post them here.

sorry for the temporary hijack back to your regularly scheduled discussion on adhesives.

Kevin

[Chuck Bybee]

I didn't know this thread was here. :confused:

The wood we sent was stabilized Tasmanian myrtle.

Great testing guys. Steve, I'll send you the box of materials next time.

[DiamondG Knives]

Gentleman
I have been away, and when I stopped reading this post, it was at 5 pages I belive.
I Thank all of you involved for your time, deterimination, and cost. The information gleened from these test will be awsome!

One thought, was wondering if anyone has tried Golf Club Shafting Epoxie? It may be in the earlier threads and I missed it, seems like it would have to be a good shock resistant adhesive. Just wondering.

Thanks again guys!!

God Bless
Mike

[tmickley]

Mike, one of the glues I have been testing is Golfsmith golf shafting epoxy and it is testing very well. It held on longer than all but the poly glues in my first test. It seems to be just as determined this round.


an update on the 324 Speedbonder. my last post about this stuff I carped about how it didn't cure at the edge, leaving approximately 1/16" uncured. I glued up another piece using micarta and ran it through the dishwasher several times. (my wife kept taking it out, I kept putting it back, finally I wore her down) It seems when it got soaked in the dishwasher, the edge cured completely so there wasn't any 1/16" soft spot. I guess the water blocks off any oxygen so the stuff cures. In any case, 324 is back in the race for man made materials like micarta or G10.

now an update on the other tests: I haven't done a thing in the last week or so. It's been busy here. I'll get back to finishing these up when the dust settles....Stay tuned...

[justice]

an update on the 324 Speedbonder. my last post about this stuff I carped about how it didn't cure at the edge, leaving approximately 1/16" uncured. I glued up another piece using micarta and ran it through the dishwasher several times. (my wife kept taking it out, I kept putting it back, finally I wore her down) It seems when it got soaked in the dishwasher, the edge cured completely so there wasn't any 1/16" soft spot. I guess the water blocks off any oxygen so the stuff cures. In any case, 324 is back in the race for man made materials like micarta or G10.

lmao wow thats a new one who would have thaught. new cureng method ! clamp up your work and stick it in the dish washer for a few cycles to dry!!

......justin

[tmickley]

After several times through the dishwasher and a couple times in the freezer and once from the freezer to the heat treat furnace for an hour at 175, there were three failures.

I sure don't like these failures and I know many of you won't either. Todays failures are:
West System (the premier epoxy for boat and airplane builders), Acraglass (ouch) and Golfsmith Golf shafting epoxy.

The West System epoxy didn't test all that well in Steves first round either.

I took my test piece from the furnace after it had cooled and started whcking it (naturally - what else would you do?). The Acraglass popped right off, one whack. There was residue of adhesive on both the wood and the metal. The epoxy failed, not the materials being joined or the purchase.

After one series of whacks I thought I would be testing these #### things until I'm 90 if I don't start speeding things along. I whacked the snot out of them all again, with feeling this time.
Now here is where things go terribly wrong; if you've ever been golfing, you know the inherent dangers of being struck by a wildly hit golf ball. I was out golfing years ago with a couple of my bosses and several of my peers when one of my bosses got nailed right in the family jewels by some guy 200 yards away. Naturally, being the mature individual I am, I found this to be insanely funny at the risk of damaging my so far, underwhelming career. I still do when ever I think about it. Tony didn't finish the round - and maybe conicidentally, I don't know for sure, but he never had any more children after that. The next time we went golfing, I gave him an orange deer hunting vest and a nut cup - he did NOT see the humor in this.
Anyway, the reason I'm telling you this is because one of my better whacks dislodged the golf shafting piece of wood sending it flying. You can guess where it flew. I'm here to tell you I enjoy seeing some one get knocked in the crotch as much as the next guy but it's never funny when it happens to you. So let this be a lesson to you all, don't take up golfing and if you do, go with Tony, my old boss. After all what is the chances of him or anyone with him getting hit again? As for children, I have two of them which is often more than I want at times.

respectfully submitted
Douglas

[tmickley]

There's a lot going on here. Since I am still determined to get these tests done by 2048, when I am 90, I decided to boil them for some time. Since I have been asked to not boil any of my junk in the kitchen any more, I had to move it outside. Out the side door of my garage, you can see my son Connor sulking because he has to help with yard work. I have just cut down a bunch of scrub trees around the corner with the chain saw and he has been commanded by my lovely to help move the branches to a pile to be burned. This activity lacks a video game so he is loath to enjoy this, which makes it all the better I got his picture doing it. In the foreground, is my turkey fryer boiling away (water) with all of the test pieces in it. Initially this was outside the door but it was too windy so I had to move it in. Naturally, this thing was coated with nasty old turkey frying oil so that spilled all over the floor. Can't wait for a hot day to smell that later. Once I got it boiling good, I came back to find a bad smell in the garage. The burner flame had gone out and was merrily filling the garage with propane gas. Luckily, I caught it, opened up all the doors and aired it out before we made the 6:00 news. I promised I would work in golf earlier. If you look in the background behind the fence is the 13th fairway of NorthLinks Golf Course. I've lived here for two years and so far I have nearly a 5 gallon pail of free golf balls. None have hit me but I think it's only a matter of time....