Good Steel Without Heat Treatment

[rocketmandane]

Hi everyone, So I am obviously new to the forum and have a quick question about steel
I have seen a number of threads recommending different types of steel but all require some form of heat treating..
That being said I am trying to find out what type of steel I can use that requires no heat treating but could still make a heavy duty survival knife.??
Or is there no such thing?? Possibly a steel that would do well with even basic or crude heat treating??

The source of steel I will be using is Pacific Machinery & Tool Steel Company http://www.pmtsco.com/
Not sure what it all means but from their website: Some say heat treated so i would assume they would need no further treatment/ hardening??

1018 HR Special Bar Quality
4142 Heat Treated
1045 HR Special & Commercial Quality
4150 Heat Treated Resulfurized
4142 As Rolled
4340 Annealed
4142 Normalized
4340 Heat Treated
4142 Annealed
8620 As Rolled
1018 Cold Drawn
Acralloy? HT SRD G & P
1018 Turned & Polished
Super Acralloy? E-4340 TG & P
1040/45 Turned & Polished
e.t.d. 150? As Drawn
1045 Arrow-Ten? G & P
e.t.d. 150? Ground & Polished
1045 G & P Ring Gauge Quality
41L40 CD Annealed
Stressproof? As Drawn
4130 CD Normalized
Stressproof? G & P
4130 CD Annealed
Fatigue-Proof? As Drawn
86L20 Cold Drawn
12L14 Cold Drawn
86L20 CD Ground & Polished
303 Stainless CD or CG
17-4 PH Stainless CG
A-2 Annealed
O-1 Annealed
A-6 Annealed
O-6 Graph-Mo? Annealed
A-10 Graph-Air? Annealed
H-13 Annealed
D-2 Annealed
S-7 Annealed
Gray Iron Class 40
O-1 Precision Flat Ground Stock
Ductile Iron 65-45-12
O-6 Precision Flat Ground Stock
1060/70 Plow Steel
A-2 Precision Flat Ground Stock
1080/95 Carbon Spring
Low Carbon Flat Ground Stock
A-36 Structural As Rolled
Ductile Iron 80-55-06
1045 Carbon As Rolled
5160 Alloy Spring
1045 FM Carbon As Rolled Resulfurized
Blue Tempered Clock Spring
4140 Annealed or Norm. & Tempered
8620 As Rolled
A-514 (T-1) Heat Treated

[Ray Rogers]

Steel can be heat treated for any number of purposes and still not be an effective blade. Those steels marked 'heat treated' are still too soft to be a good blade. Basically, there is no steel that would make a good survival knife without being properly heat treated. However, most any piece of steel formed into a crude knife is better than no knife in a survival situation.

Of the steels listed, 1080 is the best choice if you make a knife and have to heat treat it using crude methods (a forge or torch). O1 and A2 are excellent blade steels but will require precise temperature control to get your money's worth from them.

Finally, anyone who has to ask these questions should not tackle a large survival knife as a first project if you have any choice in the matter. Make some smaller utility blades first and learn the processes involved before trying to make a big knife. Also, consider using a stainless steel - not the usual first choice for a survival knife but they are easy and inexpensive to send to a commercial heat treater like Texas Knifemakers ....

[TexasJack]

Let me add that there are places that will do the heat treat for you. You may even find a local knifemaker willing to do so (particularly if its a simple steel like 1080).

Think of it this way: In order to shape a knife by stock removal or forging, you want the steel to be "soft" enough that you can actually form the shape. "Soft" would be a very bad property for a finished knife. That's a huge over simplification, but it's something that can't be ignored.

[Doug Lester]

Due to the steels that you listed, it is quite evident that you know nothing about what makes steel, steel or what makes a knife blade a knife blade. That's where almost every one of us started out. You need to get some books on knife making and do some reading before you even attempt your first knife. Heat treating is what separates a knife from a knife shaped object and is more important than actually shaping the blade.

Doug

[rocketmandane]

Thanks for the responses!

I guess first of all I should have defined what I consider a survival knife. I am not planning some 12 inch blade with hollow handle or something crazy. I was looking at making a knife similar to the Helle Temagami http://www.helle.no/products/knives/temagami/ or the Swedish knifes available from Cody http://www.codylundin.com/abo_store.html something very simple will rise to the occasion.
Yes I realized I listed a number of steels that I have only currently basic being a overstatement knowledge about. BUT I listed everything they had available minus rebar just in case something jumped out as something that would fit the bill?

As far as being able to send it out is not going to be a option. As far as being able to build something crude or a little better is possible. But I am being realistic and I have to plan to not have that ability. OR I can spend 7 months perfecting the blade and scales and doing research and treat it then or send it out to be treated then.

[TexasJack]

I feel safe saying that anyone who as worked on knives any length of time will tell you that it is no use to build something that is flawed. (At least one knifemaker on here dug a hole in his garden and buried all the knives that he made that didn't come out right!)

It's much better to take your time, learn what you're doing, and do a good job. You might want to take a look at texas knifemakers supply and think about starting with a blade that's already finished and work up a nice handle and sheath.

You might also look for Wayne Goddard's book "$50 Knife Shop". It's cheap and yet it has all sorts of great info on how to make a quality knife without spending a fortune. There are a lot of very talented and seasoned knifemakers that still have that book on their shelves because it's that good.

[TheWeatherman]

Man, I kind of hear what you want and see where you are going with it. I hate to say it but TexasJack, Doug, and Ray is right about all the points they said.

When I started making knives I wanted to make a Tracker knife so bad. I still haven't made one and choose to make other knives that I have found that I like better.

However, having said that you definitely need to do a little more planning and reading about some of the more important aspects of knives, like different types of edges, edge retention, chemical makeup of the different steels, handle materials (there are a lot more points) and then plan accordingly to what you really want. You don't need to know those things to make a knife, BUT it makes it easier in the long run.

[Doug Lester]

well, Dane you picked out a nice pattern. It's fairly straight forward. The tang is bedded in the handle a little bit unusually. The problem with it would be to inlet the handle to accept the tang. There's other ways you can handle it though. The bevel on that is a scandi grind. That's one continuous grind from where the bevel starts to the edge with no secondary bevel. I've got a couple on the bench with that grind right now. I've got to slow down doing nothing and work on them.

Get a book or two. You can probably find a few good video's on YouTube. When you figure out what you want to make it from and have some idea of how to go about it, go for it. You will, however, need to heat treat the blade or have it heat treated for you.

Doug

[Crex]

Need to focus on what you want to accomplish, research and study all necessary aspects regarding that goal then come back and ask specific questions. All over the page questions will get the same kind of answers.
Just a little reading in this section of the forums alone, would have reduced your questions to a more focused approach.

If knifemaking was "that simple" then you wouldn't need to ask any questions. There's a lot of education and intelligent thought that goes into constructing quality servicable cutlery. It may not show in the conversations that developes here, we are a pretty relaxed bunch. However, all the accomplished makers here have done the studying, research, testing, retesting, and long hours of application to get things right.
If you think you are going to be an accomplished knifemaker in 7 months (or less), well ....................................... I got nuthin!

[rocketmandane]

Thanks everyone for the input!

Ok got the $50 Knife Shop on order and hope to get out to a book store this weekend (Nearest is 1hr away)

* Crex, i wasn't implying i'm going to be a Accomplished knife maker in 7 months or less. I will soon be pretty well off the grid for 7 months . Hence why i was asking about The steel non heat treatment. I was saying when i come back to civilization i could have it treated....

[Crex]

Then Wayne's book will be very helpful to you. Time would be better spent learning basic forging with minimal access to power. You can make all kinds of useful items out of scrap steels and other metals if you learn how to work with fire and hammers. And....you can forge and heattreat your own blades without the use of any power equipment.
How far off grid?
I have a former student that lives completely off grid somewhere up river from Juneau, Alaska as close as you can get to Canada without crossing the line. He works as a guide, but makes all his own knives and axes now as well as most of his other tools, including hinges, pliers, hammers, gigs, fish spears, etc.
I hear from him about 3 times a year when he makes it down to the library in some little town that starts with a K.

[Eli Jensen]

I recommend Step by Step Knifemaking

Step-by-Step Knifemaking: You Can Do It!: David Boye: 9780615116594: Amazon.com: Books

Step-by-Step Knifemaking: You Can Do It!: David Boye: 9780615116594: Amazon.com: Books

$50 knife book is ok, but I've learned much more from David Boye. You MIGHT need to know a few basics for this one, but not if you're a quick study.

[bob levine]

Its worth taking the time to learn the basics. You cannot run before you learn to stand upright and then learn to walk and then run. buy a book, go to learn from a local knifemaker in your area. If that is not possible and you will be "remote" there is little chance that you will turn out anything worth your efforts. This is a harsh ascessment of your situatiion, but a realistic one. (From a 40 year knifemaker and teacher of knifemaking) T-Rex the town is proll Ketchican.

[rocketmandane]

OK, I received the $50 Knife shop and the Wonder of knife making this weekend! After reading some of the book i went out and picked up a Old Skinning knife to try out some of ideas talked about in the books. I will keep everyone updated when i start my first knife! And how far "off the grid" is smack dab in the middle of the Hindu Kush Mountains.....

[Ray Rogers]

Sounds like it's even more remote than my place or Rockhound's gold mine ...