DEFINITION AND ETHICS

Jerry,

You have hit upon my point exactly. If a maker uses a CNC to produce a particular knife. I still consider it a custom knife. The CNC is only as good as the person using it.

Most of the CNC work done on custom knives is done on the handle. Yes, there are some applications that can be done on the blade.

Michael Walker can use a CNC, doesn't mean he uses it on every knife. Im sure he also has a micro-lathe and some other specialty type equipment.

Those who buy his work and Ray's work understand that these makers have taken knife making to a level of percision that few makers (without these tools) can ever hope to attain.

The other factor and probably the most important is that these makers are very upfront about the tools they use and what they use them for.

I once heard Ray say that his knives are the best in the world that are untouched by human hands.

Now, that is about as honest as you can get.

To many makers are missing the point about what is and what is not. Ultimately, the customer decides what is sought after and what is not.

I encourage every maker I work with to look at all the mechanical options for producing knives. Times are changing as is technology.

When I had a statistics course in Grad School. We were told we could use calculators but not run the problems on a computer. We were told this was for are own good. As we need to memorize all these formulas for statistcal analysis.

I replied to the professor, but why learn something that you will not use. Not statistics, but using a calculator to run them. I pointed out that corporate america now uses computer software to run these problems. All we do is plug in the paramaters and the information.

This was one of only two course I got a B in during Grad School. I think he had it in for me. My statistical analysis of the situation backs up my hypothesis!

Point being, look to the future and use every bit of technology you can get your hands on. Just be honest about it.

Les Robertson
All infromation is correct (+/-3%)
Statistical Humor

There is nothing wrong with CNC machining. It is simply a manufacturing method that replaces the maker's hand control of a machine with a computer control. There are many great makers and knives which utilize this technology, a few of which I am even priviliged to own.

On the good side it allows for a high degree of precision and for a more cost effective method of replicating parts. Better knives for less you say? No problem there.

On the negative side for me I find makers that utilize this method tend to make knives that look pretty similiar due to common stock componants. I personally like handmade knives because not only do I appreciate the craftsmanship that is required to build a knife by hand I also like the fact you can "customize" it more due to the lack of reliance on stock patterns. For instance, the last handmade I bought I selected the size, blade shape, handle pattern, and made it a lefty and as far as I know there is not another one like it in the world. I like that. It was no easy thing to build completely by hand and that is its great appeal to me. This is not an issue for everyone nor is it particularly logical, but then again how logical is it to buy expensive customes if all we were concerned about was just cutting!

So I guess the question of CNC etc.and what is a custom knife comes down to a few to me:
(there are no universal right/ wrong answers)

1. Who used the term "custom knives" in the first place as very few are truly custom? Bad choice of terms.

2. What is a handmade knife? (I like Rades' definition)

3. Does one cross the line from craftsman to mini-factory with the utilization of automated production methods like CNC machining? These are the same methods used at small knife houses (CRK, Whitewing etc) and big factories. This is not techno-phobia but a question as to at which point does the use of manufacturing aids (be they CNC, outsourcing, etc) change a custom knife from being "custom" to a "production" knife (albeit a really nice and often expensive one).

4. If you found out a knife you thought was handmade was actually CNC-made would you be dissapointed? (this happened to me)

5. should the use of CNC etc be openly disclosed? Why are some makers reluctant to do so? Should you even have to ask?

6. Are you willing to pay a premium for an all handmade knife?

7. Heat treat. I currently avoid the issue by being partial to stellite/ talonite.

8. Do I really need any more knives? noooo... but there are plenty I want!!

bandaidman, many good thoughts.

1. custom as a definition is still being debated among all of us.
2. I can accept Rades Def.
3. You cross the line when you start making more than one of the exact same thing.
4. Yes, if I found out after I had purchased it. No, if I knew ahead of time.
5. Yes, it should be disclosed, personally I know how hard it is to program one of those things and it is a skill that should be praised not shunned. It brings me back to the early days of computers and CADD. Cad users where and many still are considered glorified draftsmen, when it is a different skill and should be treated as such. I think makers either, A) want you to think that it's a handmade knife (and you want to stay away from those guys) or B) can't properly explain what it is that's being done and fear that people will think that the knife they are getting is a production piece. Caveat Empor, I'm afraid applies here.
6. Maybe, depends on the knife and the maker
7. heat treat I understand Darrel's feelings about this. It is the most important phase/process in knifemaking how could you not do it yourself. Yet, I also understand that it is not always feasable (for various reasons) to do so. I'm not as strict, but I think that to really master your craft you must do this at one time or another. Once you have and you understand what's going on, the maker will be better able to farm out the heat treat as they will know what to ask for.
8. ME TOO!

OK, I'm a techie, so I'm very pro CNC and CADD and all that related good stuff. I program CNC for a Bridgeport that my buddy uses for motor work. Mostly though I map what he has done manually to allow the bridgeport to speed up the process. He still finishes all his head and motor work by hand. But the hogging out takes forever. the knifemakers will appreciate this, ever sand an intake down to 2000, I have, what a pain, but man, does that motor flow! The thing is while I have saved programs to speed things up we rarely use them, cause he builds purpose built motors and that varies the internals by what you want. Is it a street car or race car? what are you trying to do with it? what kind of racing? drag racing and nascar and rallying are all very different beasts. What are the class limitations of the kind of racing you will be doing? is this going to be a street light racer? a highway car? He asks this every time he builds a motor for someone. Then he builds the motor to suit the purpose. Then of course there is the experimenting. Last time we did this we got more horsepower maybe if we redirect the flow even more we'll get some more.

This is the same in knifemaking you build knives for a task, skinning, caping, camp knife etc. etc. It's the easy repetition once the programming has been done that scares many in the knifemaking community. But if you constantly inovate what difference does it make whether it's done through a computer or by hand.