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  #1  
Old 02-15-2002, 10:32 AM
blckbear
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California Alarmists????


I don't know if you guys have seen the new issue of Knives Illustrated but they have an article on California's new perception on the "Dirk Law" and concealability.

According to the article anyone carrying a "knife or other instrument" concealed that is capable of stabbing is in violation. The persons intent has no bearing on the crime. In other words you do not have to intend to stab someone, you just have to be caring something that is capable of stabbing someone concealed to be arrested and charged. The article does not state the design or size the instrument needs to be but I'm sure the court system will let us know.

I have a criminalogy back ground and am trying to understand this. The article quotes the California Supreme Court "a defendant, in order to commit a crime,'must knowingly and intentionally carry concealed upon his or her person an instrument that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon. A defendent who does not know that he is carrying the weapon or that the concealed instrument may be used as a stabbing weapon is therefore not guilty of violating section 12020.'" Attorney speak for arrest the person and let the court sort it out.

OK, I'm sure you can see that I'm not happy about this, but come on!!!! My grandfather has carried a knife all his life (as he says) and my father has carried a knife most of his and now I have carried a knife most of my life. My grandfather was a gentleman who use to cut apples for us kids with his pocket knife, my father is an electrician who cuts the insulation off of the wire he is working with with his pocket knife. I carry one of my own knives to open boxes and such; let's not mention all the guys I work with that use their knives on a daily basis in the course of their work. Who is to say that intent has nothing to do with it.

My main point to all of this is what is going to happen to all of us that make custom knives here in Cailifornia? I like to carry my knife on my hip and according to the article, if the knife is under a jacket it is concidered concealed (true). But if we as Knife Makers are to follow the law as it is stated by the Supreme Court's latest interpretation then any knife we make that is concealable, whether in a sheath or able to fit in the waistband or pocket, it is in violation. I know we are not responsible for the end use of the tools we make, but will this new law effect our industry more?

I intend to talk with the attorney that wrote the article to see if he can answer a few of my questions, but I would like to here what you guys have to say about this.

Mike
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2002, 10:46 AM
RoboKnuxEvangelion
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Mike
I totally agree with you and for those of us who also make fountain pens--- watch out!!!! Because, if I understand the letter of the law as it is stated, carrying a fountain pen could become an offense, not to mention those deadly #2 pencils that I see teenagers flashing with abandon.

James
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2002, 12:24 PM
jar
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You folks in California just need to quit concealing them weapons. It looks like you can all wear swords though
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  #4  
Old 02-15-2002, 07:43 PM
Shadowenterprise
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Unfortunately, CA seems to come up with laws that spread quickly across the country. This is true on all levels, even aside from knives.

Learned a new one this morning:
CA issued a law stating that basically it against the law (and the building code) for a locksmith to install double sided deadbolts on new residences.
Sure enough it has made its way down here in MS as I learned this morning.

All the more reason for us to stay banded together as a group of individuals concerned for our rights.
As Editor and Webmaster for the MKA, I do have plans on (locally) tackling some of the more insane knife laws (even though ours aren't that bad NOW). I feel it is appropriate for an Association to do what they can to educate the public (and idiot legislators) on knives as tools and not merely bad weapons.

Write articles and letters! Send them to your congress
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  #5  
Old 02-19-2002, 08:39 AM
blckbear
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Hey guys the thing that gets me is the article mentioned that knitting needles could be concidered a deadly weapon. Now that is true but according to the law that means that my 93 year old grandmother will be arrested if she is is stopped on her way to her knitting circle.

James your absolutely correct. All us businessmen who carry pens and pencils for..... well business can be arrested for carrying a concealed weapon, just because we KNOW it can be used as one.

this is crazy.

Mike

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  #6  
Old 02-19-2002, 03:22 PM
Dana Acker
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There's an old proverb..."Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad." Fitting, considering the current political climate. Oh well, we keep electing 'em.

My attorney was a political science major in college. Once while home on vacation, he was shocked to learn that his grandmother didn't vote. When queried as to why she didn't perform this most sacred of civic duties, she replied, "Because it only encourages them."
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  #7  
Old 02-22-2002, 06:04 PM
Troop9242
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Mike
I talked to you at the show friday some about this and if you do have any leads on what we can do about this let me know. Enough is enough.
James
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  #8  
Old 02-23-2002, 11:20 AM
acs1943
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Hey you guys
If you want to see were this is going look at Canada or the UK
"the home off bowie"
they are working on taxing air and then baning it

so watch out and fight for you rights.

Alan
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  #9  
Old 03-14-2002, 09:47 AM
blckbear
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Well everyone I was able to talk to Chris Micheli, the attorney that wrote the article, and I will have to say that this must be one busy man since all I heard most of the time was him working on his computer.

I posed the question of what can we do to help change the decision? He said, "that is the decision and why would you need to carry a knife concealed?" I tried to explain that 1) sometimes you don't have a choice depending on what clothes you are wearing at the time (long jackets, flannel shirts, sports coats, etc.) and 2) that the way the article and the law is written a person does not have to be carrying a knife, it states "...knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death." This could be a pen, pencil, sharpening steal, or keys. Chris' basic answer was that if a police officer were to arrest someone for that the D.A. would throw it out; that would be of some comfort after I spent the night or weekend in jail just because I met the one bad cop in the department. Not to mention that I would have a record of being arrested for carrying a concealed weapon.

I would like to say that Chris was very kind in returning my phone call in such a timely manner, and I'm sure he is a very busy man. But for an attorney that suppose be representing the American Knife & Tool Institute, and who consistantly contributes to Knives Illustrated, to answer the question of what can we do to help change this with "that's the decision... and why would you want to carry a knife concealed" is not what I was looking for.

I do have to admit that I was a little upset at the lack of help and needed 36 hours to calm down in order to write this. The thing that got me was the fact that he kept repeating "that is the decision, what arguement do you want me to use?" I kept repeating that this decision is not realistic and has a potential for abuse. He just repeated the same sentence and finally signaled the end of the conversation.

Sorry about the ranting and raving but I think that this is something that needs to be addressed hear, if not for the obvious reasons but if we (knifemakers) are going to a show we are, technically, in violation. Not to mentions this has the potential to effect our business here in California.

If I'm way off base will someone please tell me.

Mike
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  #10  
Old 03-14-2002, 11:58 AM
BCB27
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Dana,

I think Granny was pretty smart. I don't see much difference in the two parties (that hold a monopoly on this country), at least where individual liberty is concerned. Politicians like to attribute non-voting to apathy, but I think many are tired of the game. Perhaps if enough people stand in non-violent resistence, they will begin to figure out that this country is tired of being micromanaged. I think my signature says it all.

Blckbear,

I don't think you're off course at all. Coming from AKTI, I find the 'why would you want to carry a knife concealed' comment far more disturbing than the other comments. I can understand feeling defeated, but to think that there should be no reason to carry a knife (or gun for that matter) concealed is unimaginable to me. I tend to think of knives more in the tool role, mainly because firearms make far better personal defense weapons.

Brett
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  #11  
Old 03-14-2002, 01:21 PM
MJHKNIVES
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This is not the first time that the AKTI , have, IMO, sold knife users down the river.
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  #12  
Old 03-14-2002, 06:04 PM
RoboKnuxEvangelion
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Mike
So this Chris character can't see that a pocket knife, carried in the "pocket" is considered concealed ? I was raised to believe a gentleman always carried two things- a pocket knife and a handkerchief, but I guess the handkerchief could now be considered a mask waiting to be used to rob or assault someone with the pocket knife, but then " why would anyone want to carry a concealed"... handkerchief?

James
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  #13  
Old 03-14-2002, 06:09 PM
Troop9242
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sorry about that i logged onto my sons account
james
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  #14  
Old 03-15-2002, 07:28 AM
jar
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This is an interesting discussion and one that is also very, very familar.

I have three addictions, four if you count cigars, maybe five if you count good coffee. The world seems to be bent on driving away all of my addicts. I though that I was a fairly pleasant, relatively harmless person, but no, it seems that I man now a card carrying member of the lunatic fringe.

I, I'm ashamed to admit, collect, repair and use, (dare I say it) fountain pens. I've been know to have as many as three in my possesion at one time. Each is potentially, a lethal weapon.

I, I'm ashamed to admit, collect, repair and use, (dare I say it) firearms. I've been know to have as many as three in my possesion at one time. Each is potentially, a lethal weapon.


I, I'm ashamed to admit, collect, repair and use, (dare I say it) knives. I've been know to have as many as three in my possesion at one time. Each is potentially, a lethal weapon.

I, I'm ashamed to admit, smoke, (dare I say it) cigars. I've been know to have as many as six in my possesion at one time. Each is potentially, a lethal weapon.

I guess I will still be able to drink my coffee but please, don't tell any LE, attornes or legislators.
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  #15  
Old 03-19-2002, 02:31 PM
turkeyman8
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Only in California!!
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