Prices for Finished Kit Knives?

[Osprey Guy]

I tried to make this point earlier...

Blades that are sold in a finished or near finished state to a guy who's going to put on a handle, guard, pommel, spacers, etc..., is every bit a kit knife, just fewer parts than the folder kits. (Of course this could launch a whole discussion as to what defines a "kit" knife...let's put it this way, if I were to buy one of Knifekits SG4 fixed blade kits, I would not opt to purchase the roughed-out handle material...does that then make it less of a kit?)

These blades are not only sold by folks like TKS, Koval, etc....but by many knifemakers themselves (Including prominent members of the CKD)! Are you demanding that all those kit blades be permanently stamped by the original maker...lest the public be duped by someone passing these blades off as their own? The fact is most of those blades are probably passed off in that fashion...where's all the uproar over that sort of kit knife?

I understand that in Norway (or is it Denmark), very few knifemakers actually make their own knives. (Our young friend Andre' aka Fritt is an exception.) This is considered a time honored and respected practice over there. In the old days there were blacksmith's and then there were the cutlers who took the blades and finished them off with handles, etc...and the Cutler is the one who got his name on the knife!

I'm not suggesting we change the way we now do things, but what I am suggesting is that the public has been exposed to this sort of scenario (or something similar) for many years, and the knifemaking industry, and all the custom guys out there, have somehow managed to survive the ensuing onslaught of bad publicity. ("What, you mean the blade on that knife I love so much was actually made by someone else?...That's outrageous!")

There are far too many descriptions, opinions, and interpretations as to what makes a knifemaker...there are way too many for any one to be right (and all the others wrong!).

With these kits, we're all trying to do the right thing...within reason. That is probably far more of an effort than is put forth by some of the aforementioned scenarios.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Darrel Ralph]

Kit,
I am sorry I dont buy into your argument.

We do not misrepresent what we sell first of all.
The specifications are on our site. We are not selling "fad" materials for kitknives. We are selling functional materials that will do the job.

Next I totally disagree with your comment about the liners.
I feel that a properly heat treated 420 j2, 410ss, or 417-4-ph ss liner is as good, or better than a titanium liner for thin .04 -.06 thick locking liner knives. There is more weight to the stainless but I feel they are stronger and wear better over the long haul. This of course is dependent on the quality of the heat treat. I will not sell a locking liner custom knife with a liner under .09 thick made from titanium. The thicker titanium will last longer and presents fewer problems with wear. The thinner in my testing will.
This is what I have found over the years of making thin titanium on liners on custom knives.
Kit I respect the knives that you make and I am not degrading the way they are made with thinner titanium. This is my opinion and the testing that I have done here at my shop. This comes from feedback from my clients who use the knives and what I know as true. We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
Your experience and my experience with thin titanium liners will not be the same I am sure.


As for blade steel we use aus 8 in most cases. We do not feel that aus 6 holds an edge well enough.
All of our kit wear parts are hardened. This makes for a great precise product that will last.

Mr Barr,
When you step up to the plate with the cost of having our products manufactured you can make a decision on how and what we do to mark them. At this point we will not take any action in this respect. We feel it is up to the maker to provide the proper information about the knife as it is when you make a custom knife. It is not our job to be knife police.


Jerry,
Very nice to see you here!
Your concerns are well thought out. We take SOME QUESTIONS as legitimate not whining. The comment about SOME whining knife makers was directed at folks who put down or make derogatory statements about our product before they understand what our product is and the purpose.

If you read Alex's last post... we are filling a gap in the market. Our kits are a new step in the market. Not every matter can be examined in the finest of detail. We will let the market sort out the aftermarket, and coming trends. The un-known will be determined in this manner. We can all talk about our concerns.
We feel this is good. But the future is where the answers are.

In history folks were skeptical about the automobile when it arrived on the scene. They said that the horse and buggy would never be replaced with the automobile. Are you still riding a horse? Are you using a candle to read with?

The point is knifekits.com is here to stay. We are willing to listen to reason if we feel the reason applies to our products. We are willing to work within the knife making community as a new niche in the market only and with this level of respect. We will not however be brushed off into a corner by anyone. So we can all get along or go our separate ways. We choose to be accepted and as an alternative not as an enemy. We will take whatever action necessary to defend our position while at the same time earn our step in the knife making chain.

There are collectors in the industry sending knives to customizers who take apart factory knives. These folks are charging 300.00-600.00 or more to file work or embellish the knives and re-assemble them. Engravers (this can be in the thousands of dollars) do the same thing. Many engravers embellish others knives, guns, rings, flatware and the list goes on. They get paid for there time. Folks who make knifekits will earn what they charge for their time as do these folks. This is where the knifekit price can be determined.

On a final note, knifekits.com cannot control how makers mark their knives or the story that goes with the knives just as a custom knife is left up to the maker to explain and mark their knives with honesty. We are not the knife police.

A good example is that guns are sold everyday to folks. It is not the manufactures responsibility to police the market for rouge shooters and bad guys.

The knifekits.com official stance is that kit knives should be marked customized by (makers name here). We feel that this subject has been hashed over. The answer has been given. This is the action that we feel works for us.


Sl,
Components inferior to what? Our components are not inferior.
The componets we use are good. They will serve the purpose intended well. We are not in the "fad" materials business.
We are not addressing the same type of market as the custom knife maker that stays up with the latest and greatest to generate sales.

[Jerry Oksman]

Dennis,
It's Sweden where most knife "blanks" are made and finished by non-knifemakers. In Sweden this is a very accepted hobby along the same path as coin collecting or stamp collecting is here in the US. It is very typical in Sweden.

Everyone else,
As for the debate on kit knives, I think that it is a situation of caveat emptor. I have seen many "fakes" of scagels and morans and even randalls. I do no consider a kit knife a fake, but I do consider knowing what they are in the same boat as knowing how to identify a fake. It's part of the business.

I doubt I will ever make a kit knife, just don't have the time. I am a hot rod guy as well as a knife collector. How many of you can walk up to a Corvette and tell what year it is just by looking or can tell whether or not a 70 Camaro SS is a fake or not. It's taken me a while but I can usually tell. It comes from experience and that is just how the secondary market in knives will be weeded out. As the unscrupulous sell to the novice they get burned and learn.

I had this pour schmuck came into my friends shop, he thought he had a great 68 camaro. My friend (the owner of the race shop) goes to me look at the trunk. Sure enough someone had placed new rear quarters on top of the existing rusted out ones and pop rivited it on, then a lot of red lead later and the seams where gone. My friend had to tell this guy that the car wasn't worth the effert to fix it would be cheaper to get a new car.

Jerry, Kit, Al, the above little senario is I think what you fear in kit knives people will be turned off, when they get burned. That guy was P.O.'d at my friend, but he told him the truth. He could have lied, dragged the car into the shop and just drained the guys wallet. But my friend isn't built that way, even if it was bad news he told you straight. But on the other hand this guy knew it all and bought the car without asking anyone or talking it to a mechanic to give it the once over. I feel he got what he deserved as he did not do his homework or get educated in what he was buying. I think that if you dish out $8000 for a car or $800 for a knife you should have some basic idea of whats going on.

I have had an education in custom knives. I have bought some pieces that I would never buy today, I learned. I think that people should take responsibility for their own actions. The Kit builders should be honest in what they do, but the buyer is not exempt from all knowledge. If you protect all these possible future collectors aren't you turning into a nanny state just like our government. Who will make it safe for us no matter what.

[Al Polkowski]

Darrel,

I love you man, who else would get knife names from sneaker websites.

BUT.......You must RECUSE yourself from this thread, the reasons are obvious.


Al P

PS. There are a couple of words I originated in this thread that are being misspelled:

Boni-fide...no dash needed ....bonifide.
uneducated buyer.......UNeducated (ie, really uneducated)

[Darrel Ralph]

Al,
Can you please explain what name you are talking about?
We see syntactical similarities introduced for rhetorical effect in every line of business everyday.

What about the names of dogs, cats, tactical maneuvers, guns that knife models from makers all over the world come with?
Your point about knife names is unclear. I do feel the hilarity runs in both directions.
I do appreciate your concern be it serious or not.
I try to stand up for what I believe. If you or others find this not to your liking then so be it. If we all think the same way then the color of life is one.

On another note love is a very strong word for two guys on an open forum. I like you Al, and Ill leave it at that.

[KNAdmin]

Yeah, any more of that love talk and I'm going to have to ask you guys to get a hotel room. This is a family forum!

Alex

[Al Polkowski]

Originally posted by Darrel Ralph
Al,
Can you please explain what name you are talking about?
We see syntactical similarities introduced for rhetorical effect in every line of business everyday.

What about the names of dogs, cats, tactical maneuvers, guns that knife models from makers all over the world come with?
Your point about knife names is unclear. I do feel the hilarity runs in both directions.
I do appreciate your concern be it serious or not.
I try to stand up for what I believe. If you or others find this not to your liking then so be it. If we all think the same way then the color of life is one.

On another note love is a very strong word for two guys on an open forum. I like you Al, and Ill leave it at that.

Darrel,

I thought you were a nice guy Darrel, but here I find out otherwise.

My remark about sneaker knife names refers to a conversation we personally had in NYC last year.

If you want to bust my chops with your BS answer, step right up mate.

Now, RECUSE yourself.

[Darrel Ralph]

Al,
Like your first post Im just kidding!!
Take a breath.
Sneaker names are cool!!
Its a good place for ideas!

[Al Polkowski]

Originally posted by Darrel Ralph
Al,
Like your first post Im just kidding!!
Take a breath.
Sneaker names are cool!!
Its a good place for ideas!

OK, I apologize
AL P

[Darrel Ralph]

Al,
No harm done!~

We must be spending to much time on this thread.
Ill have to work half the night to get caught up again.

[Al Polkowski]

Too much energy wasted.

This is it for me.

Sooo long kit-knife Guru.

Sooo long knit-knife put it together people.

AL P

[KNAdmin]

For all of the new posters to the CKDF, we're pretty open with our rules here. In fact, anything you want to say goes and we let the members decide when you go over the line, so post away. However, we do have one unspoken rule ... that is, we do not allow a thread to get this long without a picture of a knife somewhere in it.

With this in mind, I refer to the last post with this image of a GX6 dagger by one of our best "knit-knife put it together people", Jim Cooper.



From all of us kit gurus, nice slap together execution, Jim! Very well done!!!

Of course, if you're inspired by the above work, perhaps you would like to find out what is on the horizon at knifekits.com. The latest, soon to be released model, the DDRIII series folder has it's own home thread located here: http://ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15560

Alex

[SharpByCoop]

Founding member & Chief Kahuna: Official K.K.P.I.T.P. Almost 2nd-class Knifemaker Guild.

I guess things could be worse...... At least *I* am not being called UNeducated...

All in fun....

Coop

[Al Polkowski]

Originally posted by Coop747
Founding member & Chief Kahuna: Official K.K.P.I.T.P. Almost 2nd-class Knifemaker Guild.

I guess things could be worse...... At least *I* am not being called UNeducated...

All in fun....

Coop

Real nice Coop. Guess I have to buy you a steak next meeting


AL P

[Darrel Ralph]

#### Al,
And here you said you loved me.