Prices for Finished Kit Knives?

[darrylburke]

Wow.. go away for a few days.. lots of good points and views to read..

Darrel, there is one point I'd like to make in the last few lines.

--
Darrel said:
"My comments about not listening to knife makers or anyone else can be explained very simply.
Why listen to anyone?
Every person has to make there own way in life. I do not condone deceit in any manner. I do however condone making a living, having a hobby, getting an education and most other things in life in the fashion that "you" choose. We all have enough government in our lives dont we?"

--
I agree 100% that the only way for someone in life to "make there way" is to do it themselves.

But in order to do that, you need a good basis to start.. Just like my experiences in kit making (in what ever form you want to call it) to actually knife making (Started my first from scratch this weekend), I have found that the best way was NOT to just pickup a piece to steel, and start hammering away.. I could have spent years learing myself what what right, wrong, and the easy way to do things.. but instead, I choose to "sit back" listen with both ears, and just absorb what others were saying, or doing..

I think we all have to listen, in some form, Now does this mean that we actually agree, or plan on using it.. absolutly not.. This is where each person has to figure out is this is "right for them" and the only way to do that, is to try it out..

we all learn by experience, and there is no substitute.


over the last 3-4 month of finding CKD, I've seen some truly amazing knives, both in the "maker" forums, as well as the "kit" forums. but to me.. those are all other peoples styles, or experiences. and I know, after being here. that I want to eventualy get to the point where I can create a knife to truly call my own.. and for me.. This forum (and kits) are the best way to figure out what my "own style" is.. (and one hell of a learning experience)

One thing I have learned since I started to get interested in custom made knives.. This community is a very passionate one. you can seen the pride in the creators, and the envy in the buyers.. I agree with CKDAdmin that in it's basic form , this is a business 100%, but if it was JUST a business, we would have gone broke a long time ago.. $600 for 100 hours (As per Dennis)

kinda hard to just have a business based on that. It's the passion for knives, the passion for trying new idea, and for the appreciation of the blade you hold in your hands that keeps this
trade going.

Al/Kit/Dennis/Darrel/Coop, you may not realize this, but to a lot of "newbies" (as I still consider myself) you guys are the representitives of the knife making community. It's great to hear what you guys think (and why).


Darryl Burke


P.S.

Q. whats more valuable then the $5,000 hand made blade you hold in your hand..

A. The knowledge you learn from the maker, on how and why he created it. A physical blade my only last a few years, but what you learn, stays with you a life time.

[A T Barr]

Originally posted by Darrel Ralph
Can I get the description of HANDMADE that you are speaking of so that everyone is clear on this version?
I just want to clear your exact description?

At the very least, the knife maker should grind the blade bevels, finish the blade, and fit the lock to the tang of the blade.


Sincerely,

A.T.

My next show is the SouthEastern Show
in Winston-Salem, NC, September 6th and 7th.
Please come by and say hello.
"Don't you buy no ugly knife"
http://www.customknives.com/

[A T Barr]

IMO, nothing will run off new "non-knife" people or "the newcomers to the world of knives" than finding out that the knife they purchased started out as a "knife kit". From what I'm seeing on this forum, the majority of "customizing knife kit makers" are up front and honest. They tell the customer how the blade was ground and how the liners were shaped and fitted to the tang of the blade. That's the honorable way to do business.

But what happens, when that knife is resold in the future? Do you think the 4th or 5th seller will know or even care that the knife came from a knife kit? How will the new "non-knife" people or "the newcomers to the world of knives" know the difference?

In my opinion, the only way to protect the general public from unscrupulous customizing knife kit makers, from advertising or just not offering full information is really quite simple. If the manufacturers would *deeply* stamp the word "kit" on the back side of the blade, the neophyte knife collector will not be scammed.


Sincerely,

A.T.

My next show is the SouthEastern Show
in Winston-Salem, NC, September 6th and 7th.
Please come by and say hello.
"Don't you buy no ugly knife"
http://www.customknives.com/

[Al Polkowski]

#### A.T.....Do we have to give Kit credit for everything? He already owns CRKT.

AL P

[A T Barr]

Originally posted by Al Polkowski
#### A.T.....Do we have to give Kit credit for everything? He already owns CRKT. AL P

U R Bad!

A.T.

My next show is the SouthEastern Show
in Winston-Salem, NC, September 6th and 7th.
Please come by and say hello.
"Don't you buy no ugly knife"
http://www.customknives.com/

[KitCarson]

Yea, I can remember long, long ago when I was pondering what to mark my knives. Kit was in the running but I decided on just Carson, or Kit Carson. Kinda glad I did.

Darryl, AT,
Good comments.

Dennis, Alex, Jim, Darrel,
I regret that I didn't catch this thread in the beginning. Just too many forums to visit. Hate to hash up old news but to us new guys, it ain't old news

[Osprey Guy]

Kit-

Sure there's lots of knife forums out there...

...and then there's the CKD Forums!


In all the hubub I forgot to say,...
Speaking I'm sure for all the guys, it's an honor to have you here,...and I might add, it's a real kick seeing you take enough interest in this subject to risk opening yourself up to our emotional tirades.

Perhaps more than anything else I think the CKDF is known for the civility with which all members conduct themselves here...even when we strongly disagree, we always manage to agree to disagree!

It really is great having you here. Don't be a stranger...

Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!


PS. I can't imagine how many of your CRKT models I've got floating around the house...I've long held that they are overall quite possibly the best "bang for the buck" in the biz (aside from the kits of course!)

[fisk]

What I am concerned over is the future of the kit knives and how it affects all of us. Right now Dennis says he gets $800 for some and saying others do not charge for their work. It does not matter how many hours you have in a piece. It is only worth what you can get out of it. I can work on one more piece for the rest of my life and not get it to where I am satisfied with it. Could I sell it for what it is worth then? No there is a cut off time when you got to quit working on it. That is when the new owner gets a bit more value out of the piece than what you are charging for said piece.

Ok, when the second and third owner gets this knife and has no ideal [first owner died of a heart attack in bed with two postmen and he did not have time to tell anyone or did not have it written down in the paper work] he just bought a customized kit knife and he takes it to a reputable dealer and tries to sell it for that much. How well is that going to go over? Try it now with Les, or Neal or AG and see how far it goes. When the last owner finds he can only get offered $100 for it and he just lost that much value how many more knives will he buy?

This has nothing to do with honesty of the "customizer" and his selling practices. The end product has everything to do with its own future market. Kit knives have been offered for years, but not aggressively marketed such as Darrell and Alex have done. They are here to stay it appears on a larger scale, but where will it take us? Am I whinning? No. Alex and Darrell did a good job of marketing.

I am concerned with anything that affects the market. Dennis says outside of the knife market is where he gets the best price. Well that part he is right on in my opinion as I have worked it from that approach myself and it works well for me. However how will the market handle the kit knives when they come back into the knife market?

I wanted to voice my concerns here. I do have concerns over it as should anyone that keeps up with the market. But I dont whine.

[Osprey Guy]

I wouldn't begin to suggest that you don't have legitimate concerns...but then there are all kinds of things for which knifemakers should be concerned...

We've addressed the honesty/disclosure concern so now you guys want to talk about the "what if's"...Well OK....

What about the ten's of thousands of knives out there with "kit" blades...not the least of which are at least several thousand cranked out for years by a respectable fellow named Egnath. TKS, Koval, K&G, Jantz, and many dozens of knifemakers themselves, sell thousands of "kit" blades every year...most of which are probably not disclosed the First Time Around...least of all after the owner has passed away.

What about the custom "precision" folder that has since been taken apart by the current owner only to be sold to the next guy as the same "precision" folder...(heaven only knows how far off the action is from the original.) Ask Neil why he won't carry any folders that he didn't personally purchase from the original owner...

What about the "handmade" customs that are more CNC than hand?

What about all those less experienced custom makers who have no clue how to properly heat treat and put thousands of badly tempered blades on the market every year?

Heck, I could go on and on. At least with these kits we're trying hard to establish reasonable ground rules...but you guys still want to bust us. Seems to me that in the long run, you're legitimate concerns notwithstanding, the good that comes from these high quality kits with (mostly) very well intentioned, future knifemakers/collectors, far outweighs the handful of "what if's" you're so intent on focusing in on.


The simple truth as you point out is that the kits are certainly here to stay. No good will come from pounding on these few "what if's"...why not instead embrace all the good these kits, and the education they bring with them, will do for the industry as a whole?


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[KNAdmin]

Jerry, that's a great post, because it opens a line of reasoning that most traditional industry players do not presently understand. The question regarding the kit industry, specifically the high-line knife kit, and where these fit in the current market definition, how it will affect the industry, is where the nail meets the hammer. Let me explain ...

Between pure production knives and pure custom knives there is a consumer option gap. This gap is represented by both consumer investment and in consumer product choice. Simply put, beyond production knives, the consumer has only the option of tooling up, training up and/or buying what he desires from a custom maker. Many of these folks, like me, want it all. They want a cool knife, one exactly the way the mind desires it and also the pleasure of "tinkering" with it, the personalization aspect.

The phenomena which has occurred is that now, outside consumers, those not interested in the "tinkering" aspect, but still desiring a cool knife, one exactly the way their mind wants it, have an affordable choice between the production product and the pure handmade knife, the extreme counter option. This is the modern customized kit.

How will it affect the knife industry? Very simple ... "choice expands all markets."

Specifically ...
It will directly absorb sales from the current production knife market and also from the handmade knife market. At the same time, it will further bridge the information gap between the two markets and, by extending the available choices for consumers and hobbyists, will also bring with it, more market to the knife industry in total, by building more market share within the industry and moving more capital through it, opening latent market.

Yes, by squatting between the property boundaries of both existing markets (production and handmade), it will affect price and values on both sides of the fence. Production knife companies will be forced to make better products with more options for the consumer, and hand made knife makers will be held to higher standards of precision as the consumer becomes more knowledgeable about the product in general, it's form, componentry, finish expertise and so forth.

There will evolve a new market where guys like Dennis and Coop (I only pick on them because I've handled their work) will be able to build a personalized semi-production/semi-custom knife for guys like me who want it. The secondary market for these will mirror the same evolutionary path as the current secondary markets for both productions and hand-made's. The better the work, the more revered the artist, the more liquid and more saleable each will be, exactly the same as all other mature product after-markets.

In all of this, none of us will set the scale for their value or cost, the consumer will. Production knife companies and knife makers only set what they "want" for their product. The consumer sets what it trades for, or doesn't trade for.

I love the thread by Al where he points to all of the dreams, prayers and stuff that our makers should define themselves by. I understand that this is only a backlash to the effect of our product erosion on the market, I'm sure it hurts in some way. But, it also humors me because he talks to these guys like they are clueless about what they are undertaking. Yet, the questions we get asked are not what you would expect, as tough and definitely as advanced as on any other forum here at the CKDF. Of course, the results of these same questions are in plain site, too!

This industry, and this segment, is in very good, and very honorable hands. Unfortunately, initial resistance, expanded communication and purpose fulfillment are part of the price paid by any pioneering effort to make positive changes in society. The knife industry is nothing compared to what the internet presented when we started, and still is, in many ways. Yet, any of you that know me, know my personal story, also know what my philosophy is and always has been, and the results of it. Nothing has changed, except the options we all have.

Options are good ... never bad!

Alex

[KitCarson]

Dennis and Alex,

Sorry, I just don't buy your logic.

Maybe I have more insight into the manufacturing side of these parts than some. Like I said in an earlier post, in most cases, these parts are just short of a finished knife that would end up in a BudK or Smokey Mountain Knife Works catalog. AUS 6M blade steel and 420J liners don't make for a high end folder no matter how well it's put together. As Jerry said, hours put into a knife have little bearing in the final price. If it did, he and I would be flying our Lear jets around the world right now

I'm just a concerned "bona-fide" knifemaker that sees this as a potential problem somewhere down the line. I'm not knocking any of the guys that use the kits as a tool of learning, a stepping stone so to speak.

I am knocking the guy that misrepresents them and plans on putting his children thru college by selling them in a deceitful manner.

Dennis, it is refreshing to be in a thread like this and no screaming and ranting.

[A T Barr]

Originally posted by KitCarson
I am knocking the guy that misrepresents them and plans on putting his children thru college by selling them in a deceitful manner.

Dennis, it is refreshing to be in a thread like this and no screaming and ranting.

Even if the fellow that customizes the knife is up front about who ground the blade and who fitted the blade to the tang, that knife will probably be resold on the secondary market some day. The majority of these kits will be made into a knife that the original purchaser will use and carry.

Some guys add a *lot* of extras such as file work, high dollar scales and bolsters, and then sell these knives for $600 or more. And most of these guys are up front about what work they *actually* did. These knives *are* being purchased as a collectable. Sometime in the future, they will be sold on the open market. Eventually, the information that *that* knife started out as a "kit knife" will be forgotten. Some neophyte will pay big bucks, thinking they have a knife that the original knife maker ground the blade, finished the blade, and fitted the blade to the tang.

What is the reluctance in the manufactures to marking the blades *deeply* with the words "kit" on the back side of the blade? If the person buying the kit is up front and honest, they won't care. The ones that will have a problem with the blade being marked with the word "kit" is the people that will try and pass these off as all their work.

Sincerely,

A.T.

My next show is the SouthEastern Show
in Winston-Salem, NC, September 6th and 7th.
Please come by and say hello.
"Don't you buy no ugly knife"
http://www.customknives.com/

[Sylvester]

I don`t see any thing wrong with marking them as a kit.
Either on the blade or the liners. Maybe the kit builders could mark the blade like Embellished By or Embellished Kit By then
their name. Hey , I don`t know just a thought.

[darrylburke]

Kit:

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you, you you say that "some" decietful people are selling these kits as there own.

and unfortunatly those are the people who ruin it for everyone, and I think we all have a responsibility to make the public aware, and try and educate/stop the people who are selling them as thier own.

You guys talk about "two or three" owners down the line. Well that situation works both ways.. and not just with kits. How many Chinese copys are out there.. and these ones are even craftier with the marking/logo's etc.. At least with the crowd here, we are open and honest (and I've neve put my name on a blade before, even if I did spent hours building it..). IN this industry a name is everything, and we we al respect it.

It is the consumer that makes the market, and I'm not sure if you agree, a better informed customer benefits everyone. someone in thier position can actually appreciate the hard work, and artistic value that goes into a knife..

[SL Knives]

Interesting discussion (and probably educational to some) to read through here. I suppose people can do whatever they want, and sell it to whomever is willing to pay for it, and not worry about our opinion. I read the discussion through and have a hard time following some of the logic however.

Fisk is right, of course, in that value is not determined by how much time is put into a product. Would a finished knife made by a not so artistic maker, who just happened to put 100 hand worked hours into its construction be worth as much as an original, quality, aesthetically pleasing knife finished in 4 hours by a maker with some power equipment that enabled him to accomplish the same tasks better and quicker? Of course not.

Digressing, however, to the question asked by Alex, I think. "I have a Picasso oil painting, but I don't think the man made the paint or the canvas he used, is it worth anything?"

This is not a valid comparison. Knifemakers don't make the raw steel, handle materials, or sanding belts they use either, but the knives are still considered handmade by all, and yes, they are worth something.

A more valid analogy would be to compare the Picasso original painting to a Picasso print, duplicated by the thousands, then taking the print, framing it, and selling it for twice as much as the original because he spent countless hours doing intricate carvings on the frame, changing some of the colors in the painting to dress it up, adding an extra eye or two to some of the figures, or trimming the picture a little to fit his idea of what the bolsters, oops, borders I mean, should look like. An uneducated buyer may even like it more than the original because there is more to it! Is it worth more? How will the buyer feel later when an art appraiser tells him what it's really (market value) worth?

But it is a free country and it's not illegal to sell dressed up kits for whatever the (however uneducated) market will bear. Dennis has valid points in looking to, and developing yet untapped markets, however my question is, will this have a positive effect in developing the untapped knife market in the big picture? Or will the consumer, who is now hopefully part of the knife market and more knowledgeable as he continues to collect, become disgruntled when he sees where he could have gotten an original piece of art work from a well known maker for the same price or less, than he paid for inferior quality (components, not added workmanship) kit knife?

I hope I'm not considered as whining. I don't feel threatened by kit knives as I have never lost a sale due to one, and I ceartainly don't begrudge those who work on them and come up with the best end product they can. I think kit knives are a great idea and a good way to introduce many to the craft.