My Latest Attempt

[Texas Slim]

I recently bought a knife from Eddie White that has ivory micarta scales and I wanted to make a nice new lefty sheath for it. I have also been very interested in trying my hand at inlay so I picked up a small piece of elephant hide and went to work drawing up a pattern that I thought somewhat resembled an elephant's ear.

Now, I should add that this is the second pouch sheath for a fixed blade I've ever made. Between those two sheaths and two or three others that I've made for folders, I'm up to a total of about 5 sheaths by now. Still, I have high ambitions and as I am making them for my worst critic-- myself -- I can't cut myself any slack when it comes to mistakes. And I made plenty of mistakes and came up with plenty of questions while working on this one.

I made this sheath with some fairly thin leather I had on hand. I'm not so good at judging weight but since I wanted the flesh side out on both sides, I figured that once I glued it up it would be heavy enough in the end. I also did all the work on this sheath by hand, with the exception of the first rough sand of the welt, which I did using a small drum sander on my drill press.

I think it turned out ok, just ok. I had hoped for so much more but in the end, the awl got the better of me. Everything was going well until it I stitched the welt. Man it was almost impossible to push the awl through the leather without putting the sheath on my poundo board and putting some effort into it. Of course, doing it that way I was unable to know where the awl would exit and so the stitching on the back suffered quite a lot. I've done so much better in the past using my drill press but on the other hand, the holes are so much cleaner with the awl that I don't think I'll go back to the press unless I'm using some pretty heavy leather. The other problem I had was that my awl kept getting stuck. I tried sharpening the thing (many times) and beeswax with limited success. I pulled the blade out of the handle so many times that I'll either need to buy a new one or find some way to glue the blade back into place. I was wondering JB Weld would work? I'm not sure how I'd get the stuff into that little hole in the handle, but I guess where there's a will there's a way.

Another mistake I guess is that I took the inlay too far to the back side of the sheath which placed the seams on the transition curve, making the leather want to pull away from the inlay. Not too big of a problem but something I've taken note of. I also used white nylon, thinking I'd like the contrast but then hated the contrast and covered it as best I could with dye.

Hmmm. What else, I know there's more than that but I can't think of it all at the moment.

Awl in Awl I'm pretty happy with this sheath but I know I can do better. The good news is the knife fits like a dream and it's looks to be a very solid sheath that should last a loooooong time. The funny thing is, I sent a picture of this sheath to a knifemaker I know and he says I'm ready and wants to order a couple of sheaths! lol. I had to tell him I'm just not ready for prime time yet. Maybe someday.

I'd welcome your thoughts, suggestions and advice.

Sincerely,

db

[Sandy Morrissey]

I have to agree with your friend! You ARE ready to take orders! ---Sandy---

[Texas Slim]

Coming from you, I take that as the highest complement. I got started making sheaths because many of the custom knives I've been buying come with right hand sheaths and being lefty, I need something that would work for me. Plus, I was afraid that if I ordered left handed sheaths with a custom knife, I might make the knife harder to sell if I decide to let go of it somewhere down the road. Now, if I ever decide to sell one of my knives, I can offer it with two sheaths. Plus, as a lefty, I sometimes like a right hand sheath worn in the small of my back for a left hand draw so I figure a left hand sheath would do the same for a right hander.

I've never considered making sheaths as anything other than a hoby but I may have to reconsider. Of course, I still have several of my own knives that need sheaths first.

Could you, or anyone else, give me an idea of what a sheath like this one would sell for?

Thanks!

[trav]

Texas, that is one fine piece of leather work. hope i can catch up to you one of these days. Travis

[MtMike]

Slim, I like the awl much better too, keep at it and it will seem much easier as you get a little more practice. You can cheat a little on the back side -- as long as your exit hole is close to the back side groove, and is only only a pin-prick size, you can push your awl through from the back, inside the groove next to your pin prick, exiting on the front through the original hole. The awl will will expand the leather enough to mask the pin prick hole, making it virtually invisible, and your back-side line will be perfect
That's a beautiful piece of work, incredible for your 5th (or 50th!) sheath -- yes, we can be our own worst critics, but that's how we progress !

Mike

[Sandy Morrissey]

Slim, you asked one of the toughest questions in the book when you asked about pricing. After over 60 years of making sheaths, I still do not know how to price as far as the current era is concerned. I find that the two highest pricers are on the opposite side of the experience factor. The experienced professional prices by the quality of his work, labor involved, materials, and the value of his name. The newbie or amateur prices by the amount of time and labor involved, materials (?), quality (?) but has NO name recognition. The big difference is in the time involved. A professional can make a sheath in the time it takes a newbie to ascertain where he wants to start. His work has a known quality or he would not have become a pro, he stands behind his work because he knows he has few complaints. The newbie is generally of the opinion that his work is worth more than it is because of the labor factor that is far in excess of the pro time. Some leather hobbyists are capable of turning out beautiful work but , as a rule, are crippled by the labor/time bugaboo.

I consider the term " professional" when applied to a leathercraftsman as one that is capable in many facets of the field not just in the production of knife sheaths. His work must be perceived as quality in construction, utility, and eye appeal. He must be actively pursuing orders from any and all that desire his work. He must be able to deliver in a reasonable length of time and stand behind his work.

The "newbie" or "amateur" is generally not going to approach any of the above criteria. Making a few knife sheaths for one's self and a few friends takes a long time to gain experience in making sheaths, even the simplest! There are many types of knives and most of them can be sheathed in several ways that are commomplace to the pro but not so for the casual maker.

The balance of the sheathmakers fall in between the two extremes and they are the ones that establish the median price range. If you attend a show, take note of the sheaths that are shown and ask the maker what he charges for them. Note if they are of better, equivelent or of a lesser quality than yours. (Be honest!) Check out numerous makers and also some knifemakers that have sheaths displayed. You should be able to average out a price that would be right for your product---again, be honest!

[sheathmaker]

Great advice, Sandy. I'm glad you took that question on. I did a evaluation on material cost and after five years without a price increase I'm going to have to put a modest increase on my work. As you well know leather went up on Jan 1 and my last order had a "surcharge" in addtion to that Jan bump in prices.

As described in your post above I guess I fall in to the "pro" category and as far as pricing goes confined to the subject of sheaths (I do make just about anything), I start out with a base price. Base price with me includes A grade veg tan cowhide exterior with Nr. 1 grade deer skin lining, with vertical carry , tooled or plain (I don't charge extra for tooling and I don't give a discount for not tooling).

For example : Fixed blade 6" blade or less base price $60.00
Added options available: Horizontal or clip carry $20.00
Exotic inlays $20.00
Dyed any color $10.00
Any other special options priced at time of order

There is a simliar price structure for blades in excess of 6" and folder pouches etc.

The above example does reflect my anticipated price increase.

My turn around time is generally 48 hours or less. Large orders (20 or more sheaths) sometimes eat up that 48 hours fairly fast so those are negotiated with a firm delivery date at the time of order. I find my customers don't mind a reasonable wait, but they sure do want it when it is promised, so my advice to a new maker is to give your promises the very highest priority. Your reputation is at least as important as you skill......I think more so.

Paul

[Mike T.]

I'm glad you two "real" Pros (capital P) tackled this question. I've been looking at it for a couple of days.

Pricing is the single biggest problem that I've had in 26 years of sheath making. What is it worth? What is my time worth? Remember, money can't buy time. Billionaires die with money intact. We're selling a piece of our life.

We've all quoted prices at knifeshows and people have put the sheath down without a reply and walked away. Maybe they didn't really need a sheath. And we know that the price was low. It was probably priced at about $10/hr or less plus materials. Hmmm I just paid $95/hr to get my car serviced last week. Hmmmm someone else was quoted $380/hr by a divorce lawyer. So I have to decide what *I* am worth.

I won't tell you what I finally settled on but I will say this. I labored for about 20 years charging what I thought was a very low rate. I'd gauge this from orders vs walkaways at knife shows.

Then I took a couple of years off (this is not a fulltime job for me) and came back with the decision that I would now charge what *I* thought was fair for me and if no-one wanted to pay me, then I would stay retired. I doubled my old hourly rate, stopped going to knifeshows (with their table fees, fickle tire-kickers, fuel & food costs etc) and showed my stuff on the Internet.

Results - more orders per year than I had ever had (maybe 3x as many), probably 1 in 20 who didn't reply to a quote and MUCH more satisfaction for me.

All this really doesn't help the original poster with his question. I think he's got to realize that at this stage he will be very slow and as Sandy pointed out, doesn't have the experience to suggest the correct style of sheath for the particular knife. After many many sheaths WE know what works and what doesn't.

But any fool can give time way. It takes an astute decision to make both parties happy with the transaction. In my early days I was glad of the experience and the orders as you can only make so many practise sheaths for your own knives.

So Slim, maybe this has to be somewhat like paying your dues or your "apprenticeship". Make sure you cover your materials cost (I use a flat fee of about $10; win some, lose some) and a reasonable hourly rate for your time. Realize that in x years you will crank the sheaths out 2x as fast. Position yourself somehwhere between a paperboy's and a lawyer's wage and if you and the customer are happy then you did it right. Re-evaluate the whole situation often.

[Sandy Morrissey]

MikeT, dear friend----- You nailed that one as well as any that I have ever heard! Between you, Mike Bartol, Paul Long, and myself we have fought that battle over and over again. I know there are times when we were on the short end of the stick but managed to get back on the program. I currently am ready to re-evaluate my pricing structure. When my customers tell me I am not charging enough (and some insist on paying more) I feel that it is time to pay heed. Being retired for years and not depending on leather other than as a labor of love, I tend to have lower prices than most. Even though I have not been injured by a lower price structure, I have to realize that that attitude is rather on the stupid side and corrections are in order.

[Texas Slim]

Thank you Gentlemen for your considered opinions. Rest assured that I will take all your advice to heart. I apologize for my delayed response but I've just returned from a four day motorcycle tour of the Texas Hill Country and so have been away from my computer. Mr. Long, I hope my fellow bikers didn't make too much noise around your neighborhood but I have to say that your area of the state is in beautiful shape this year and I feel relaxed and ready to begin more projects as the result of my time there.

Now, on to pricing. Whew... who knew it was so complicated? In fact, I might have guessed. Although the pictures I post here don't reflect it, I've spent 24 years as a professional photographer. One of these days I'll get around to making some nice images of my sheaths for you all but until then, snapshots will have to suffice. Anyway, I find that in my line of work you generally get what you pay for. A cheap photographer will get you cheap looking images. If you want top quality you're going to have to pay for it. I charge any where from $800 to $2,500 a day depending on what the assignment requires. I've had a few potential customers balk at my rates but frankly, I'd rather let someone else have the job than short change myself or the client.

What's important here is that I have a very large base from which to determine the value of a given job, but when it comes to sheath making, I don't have a clue. I haven't been fortuante enough to attend any shows (yet) and the only sheaths I own-- other than those I've made-- are generic pocket style that came with knives I've bought. So what I was really looking for is a ballpark price and it appears the answer is, I need to determine which ballpark I'm playing in; Little League, Double A or The Big Show.

I'm certainly new to leather work. And as a family man, the time I'm able to devote to developing my skill is very limited. Still, I sweat away at my work bench as often as possible, pouring every ounch of passion into each sheath I make and I know with certainty that you can't put a price on that kind of devotion. If I charged by the hour, I'd go to the poor house. But if I charged by the piece of mind and satisfaction I get from doing this work, I'd have to send out a twenty-dollar bill with every free sheath I shipped.

In the end, I guess I'm left to find my own way when it comes to price. Still, as I have nothing to compare it to, it would be nice to know if a similar sheath, from a similar maker would fetch $20, $40, $60 or ??

Again, I thank you for your comments, opinions and time. It is a Blessing for a beginner to have guys like you to draw on and, just as I've done in photography, I promise to pass on the lessons I learn from you to others who pick up the craft.

Sincerely,

db (aka Darrell Byers)
Arlington, TX

[Txcwboy]

I ask a price that represents what my time is worth to ME ! While I dont do work as nice as Paul or Sandy my time is still valuable to me. And it still did take me a long time to get not as good as those guys ! LOL so if its to much to them so be it I am not working for free.My 2 cents

Dave

[Mike T.]

Originally Posted by Texas Slim

In the end, I guess I'm left to find my own way when it comes to price. Still, as I have nothing to compare it to, it would be nice to know if a similar sheath, from a similar maker would fetch $20, $40, $60 or ??

Yes You're right Slim, you have to find your own way and decide what your time and product is worth to you. Your customers (or potential ones) will decide whether it's worth it to them.

You wrote "I charge any where from $800 to $2,500 a day" for your photography. Using a 10 hour day that's 80-250 dollars per hour. That's probably what doctors and lawyers make and, of course, great for you if your customers are willing to pay it.

Me, I'm living for the day when a doctor or a lawyer asks me to make a sheath. I'll tell 'em that I'm quite willing to accept their hourly wage. That's one order that I'll take great satisfaction of someone walking away from.

I remember two of knifeshows over the years where individuals at my table commented that my sheaths were too much money. This angered me and I fired back stonefaced "Would YOU work for ME for $10 per hour?" That was the end of the conversation and they walked away.

Those types of exchanges made my resolve to raise my prices to where *I* was happy much more than the people who plunked down their cash without batting an eye.

[Texas Slim]

Originally Posted by Mike T.

You wrote "I charge any where from $800 to $2,500 a day" for your photography. Using a 10 hour day that's 80-250 dollars per hour. That's probably what doctors and lawyers make and, of course, great for you if your customers are willing to pay it.

As far as earning 80-250 per, that's technically correct, but that kind of money dosen't come along every day, so it all works out in the end. If I could earn $800 a day, five days a week I'd retire pretty darn quick. As it is, I imagine I'll work till I drop. What else am I going to do with myself?

Originally Posted by Mike T.

I remember two of knifeshows over the years where individuals at my table commented that my sheaths were too much money. This angered me and I fired back stonefaced "Would YOU work for ME for $10 per hour?" That was the end of the conversation and they walked away.

LOL! I've had that very same conversation, with a lawyer as a matter of fact, who wanted to argue over a couple of hundred dollars. I pretty much told him that he could sneeze and earn that much. He didn't like it but he paid me and I resolved to never work for lawyers again. I've lived happily with that decision for nearly 20 years.

Speaking of knife shows, is there a calendar online somewhere? I'd sure like to visit a few but the only shows that come through here seem to be GUN and Knife shows with the emphasis on GUN.

Thanks again to you all for your time.

Adios!

db

[Texas Slim]

Originally Posted by Txcwboy

While I dont do work as nice as Paul or Sandy my time is still valuable to me. And it still did take me a long time to get not as good as those guys ! LOL

That's pretty good and I know exactly what you mean. I aspire to be nearly not as good as those guys. My rule is to set your goals high and if you miss them to set your goal higher next time!

db

[Mike T.]

Originally Posted by Texas Slim

Speaking of knife shows, is there a calendar online somewhere? I'd sure like to visit a few but the only shows that come through here seem to be GUN and Knife shows with the emphasis on GUN.

Try looking though Blade magazine and/or Google "Knifeshows".

This one will get you started -

http://www.blademag.com/default.aspx?tabid=143