MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Ed Caffrey's Workshop

Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 05-08-2021, 07:59 AM
Ed Caffrey's Avatar
Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Posts: 4,327
Send a message via AIM to Ed Caffrey Send a message via Yahoo to Ed Caffrey
You guys got me to thinking about "quick change" die holders for those presses. What I would envision is a "die holders" built and welded to the upper and lower frame where the current dies are located.

The big question is... With dies in place, how much travel is available/how much distance is between the upper and lower dies? If you build/install quick change die plates/holders, depending on the thickness you use, you're going to loose a couple inches. If there is enough room left (that's totally up to you) then I would certainly go the route of making the dies "quick change".

If you want, I can take some pics of the way the die holders are on Orange Crush and post them....just let me know.


__________________
WWW.CAFFREYKNIVES.NET

Caffreyknives@gmail.com

"Nobody cares what you know.....until they know you care."
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-08-2021, 09:15 AM
KenH KenH is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Baldwin Co across the bay from Mobile, AL
Posts: 61
Let's see if I can work up the first set that works good before we do anything. "IF" you've got a good ideas would be good. The only thing I can think of now is just a little "L" bracket welded to the end of press die holder. I think it's pretty simple how to hold die in top "L" bracket, but bottom I'm still thinking on.

I'd not planned to do anything just yet - I've been playing so much on tooling I've not had a chance to use the press in a few days.

Later

Edit: I replied directly to Chris's post and never saw Ed's post until now, 6 hrs later. I've been thinking about how to do the quick change, and have looked at your "Orange Crush" to see how dies are mounted in it. I "think" I've come up with a way that will require welding to the die mounting for the press, but I'm not too bashful for a tad of welding {g} (I like that flame)

Here's something along the lines of what I'm thinking for combo widening and flatting die with the quick change setup. The block welded to frame is existing, so the "L" bracket would be welded to that part of frame allowing the die to slide in. The "L" bracket would have a stop on rear side. I tap that drops down from top to hold die in place, with a bracket to drop a pin to hold bottom die in place. I can see it in my mind much better than writing it down.

Note the flat die is 1/16" higher than the arc of the widening die. That 1/16" acts as an 1/8" "kisser" as the top die is also 1/16". If more than 1/8" spacer is needed, that's easy to do.

Last edited by KenH; 05-08-2021 at 04:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-08-2021, 05:34 PM
KenH KenH is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Baldwin Co across the bay from Mobile, AL
Posts: 61
Here's what I'm talking about for quickchange die holder. This is the bottom - forgive the crappy look, I've not cleaned it up up yet. When it's slid all the way back, there will be a pin that drops in front to hold in place. The back of the brackets have stops welded on so die can't go out the back.

Of course the brackets are welded to the press, but that shouldn't be a big deal. If ever desired it wouldn't be a big deal to grind welds off and clean up and use with bolts are normal.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-10-2021, 09:56 AM
Chris Railey Chris Railey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia
Posts: 25
I think I figured out a way to make the quick change die holders without welding on your existing press frame which I am sure will void your warranty and since you just bought your press...
My idea is really to use a base plate like we do for the existing dies but make sure it is thick enough to counter sink the normal die mounting bolts (or new shorter ones). You would construct the quick change plate in the same manner as you described with L- type guides but they are welded to the thicker base plate and bolted in. You can make the quick change holders to hold standard size dies or wider dies because the bolt heads will be recessed you can use wider dies. Maybe even make a decent combo die. What do you think?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-10-2021, 10:21 AM
KenH KenH is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Baldwin Co across the bay from Mobile, AL
Posts: 61
Chris's idea is good. I like it MUCH better than just welding "L" bracket to press. This method would allow a 4" wide die with no problem rather than the stock 3" wide die. 4" is plenty for a decent combo die. I'm thinking something like this with one for top, and one for bottom.
Chris, that's a "flaming" good idea.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-10-2021, 11:30 AM
Chris Railey Chris Railey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia
Posts: 25
The only thing I have not worked out is how to keep the die in place...Like a retaining pin or something.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-10-2021, 12:03 PM
Ed Caffrey's Avatar
Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Posts: 4,327
Send a message via AIM to Ed Caffrey Send a message via Yahoo to Ed Caffrey
Couple of insights..... In my experience, unless those screws used to hold the "die base" down are BIG, and I mean like 1/2 or larger, the heating/cooling will fatally weaken then, and then they will just let go/break.... and it doesn't take long at all, and getting the broken portions out is next to impossible. (can you tell I tired that? )

Also, I recommend NOT trying to pin dies in place in place....because the same thing as above happens. I'd recommend just letting the dies "float" on the die holders.... it's far less destructive on your machine/press, to have to adjust a top or bottom die as you're forging, versus trying to keep it tightly in a given position....which usually ends in something be "hard" broken.

Take that for what it's worth, I'd just rather have you learn from my errors, then having to make them yourself.

I think the first pic that Ken posted is ideal for the bottom dies. The top is a bit more difficult, because you have to create something that the top dies will "hook over", yet slide on/off.

The best I've ever seen was Jim Clow/AKA Boatbuilder who custom bent heavy gauge sheet to match the holders on Orange Crush, then welded on 3/8" thick plate for the "die holder", and then created whatever was need in the say of dies by welding stock on from there. (Jim built and then later sold Orange Crush to me). That guy is the most talented fabricator I have ever had the pleasure of knowing....yeah, he's that good!


__________________
WWW.CAFFREYKNIVES.NET

Caffreyknives@gmail.com

"Nobody cares what you know.....until they know you care."

Last edited by Ed Caffrey; 05-10-2021 at 12:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-10-2021, 02:28 PM
Chris Railey Chris Railey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia
Posts: 25
"...because you have to create something that the top dies will "hook over", yet slide on/off."

If he makes it just like the picture wont the "L" brackets on the sides hold the die in when it is upside down?

If I read you correctly Ed you are saying to have stops for the dies on three sides but leave the fourth open instead of trapping the die completely in place on the quick change holder? I do not doubt you, I just want to make sure I understand it.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-10-2021, 03:22 PM
Ed Caffrey's Avatar
Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Posts: 4,327
Send a message via AIM to Ed Caffrey Send a message via Yahoo to Ed Caffrey
Quote:
If I read you correctly Ed you are saying to have stops for the dies on three sides but leave the fourth open instead of trapping the die completely in place on the quick change holder? I do not doubt you, I just want to make sure I understand it.
Yes...and leave "slop" on the sides too! When I first started building dies for my first forging press, I had a mock-up of the die holders on the welding bench.... I made sure everything was nice and tightly fit, clamped in place with vise-grips before welding, and gently tack welded all around so things didn't "move" and then welded the snot outta everything.

The slipped onto the press like a key in a keyhole! WOOT!! What I didn't take into consideration was the dies heating up and expanding when on the press/in use...... even after cooling, they would not come off, until I took the crowbar to them. Lesson learned! "Slop" in how dies fit on a press is a GOOD THING.

And! You are absolutely right about the drawing! I had a DUH moment.... I was looking at the SECOND drawing when I thought about/wrote that..... so NIXX what I said there! Thanks for catching that!! Saying what I did surely muddied the waters. After going back.... they are both the way I'd say to do them!


__________________
WWW.CAFFREYKNIVES.NET

Caffreyknives@gmail.com

"Nobody cares what you know.....until they know you care."
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-10-2021, 03:51 PM
KenH KenH is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Baldwin Co across the bay from Mobile, AL
Posts: 61
Ya'll are correct in how I made those, the brackets weld to the end so the die can't move side to side, with the "L" over the top to hold them down, and there is a lip over the rear part of the "L" to prevent the dies from sliding out the back. The die slides in from front with a nice "sloppy" fit. I was concerned about when they got hot them getting too tight. That .30" dimension I show on left side of drawing is just an idea. Since the die base is 1/4" thick, perhaps a 5/16" space would be better? I want enough slop, but not too much slop {g}

Now, on the bolt-in die holder I show drawing of, will it being bolted down really cause a problem when heating up since it doesn't move? BUT - the dies that fit into the holder are a sloppy fit so they can move around nicely. Worse case is the bolts breaking off, but that is a threaded insert that will screw out for replacement.

My thinking "if needed" to hold dies in from front would be a drop in pin that would prevent the die from falling out the front, but still giving 1/8" or so of movement. I thought I'd use it some without the pins and see how much the dies move toward the front, can always push them back into place. OR - is there a real danger of the dies "shooting" out the front under pressure? For safety I always sorta stand to side anyway.

Later
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-10-2021, 04:29 PM
billyO's Avatar
billyO billyO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 15
What do you guys think about using the same basic set up that CoalIronworks uses for bolting down their dies, but not thread the holes? Then you could have 1/2" or larger pins on the die plate that just drop into the holes, and you could make the hole oversized to give the 'slop' needed as Ed mentions.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-10-2021, 05:29 PM
KenH KenH is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Baldwin Co across the bay from Mobile, AL
Posts: 61
A possible problem with just the drop on die would be the billet being a tad "sticky" sometimes, more so with squaring dies and might lift die off bolts. UNDERSTAND!!! I do not have the experience to even comment on that, but that was one of the things I considered before making this quick change setup.

The Coal Iron press has replaceable threaded inserts in the press, so it's not a real concern about buggering up the threads. Just screw the inserts out (if not stuck and install new inserts.

Here are the widening/flat dies I just finished in the press. The welds are just tacked in at this point so they're really ugly! Not had a chance to use them yet, just finished now at 5:30pm.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-10-2021, 08:10 PM
Ed Caffrey's Avatar
Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Posts: 4,327
Send a message via AIM to Ed Caffrey Send a message via Yahoo to Ed Caffrey
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenH View Post
A possible problem with just the drop on die would be the billet being a tad "sticky" sometimes, more so with squaring dies and might lift die off bolts. UNDERSTAND!!! I do not have the experience to even comment on that, but that was one of the things I considered before making this quick change setup.

The Coal Iron press has replaceable threaded inserts in the press, so it's not a real concern about buggering up the threads. Just screw the inserts out (if not stuck and install new inserts.

Here are the widening/flat dies I just finished in the press. The welds are just tacked in at this point so they're really ugly! Not had a chance to use them yet, just finished now at 5:30pm.
YES!!! Those are AWSOME!!


__________________
WWW.CAFFREYKNIVES.NET

Caffreyknives@gmail.com

"Nobody cares what you know.....until they know you care."
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-11-2021, 08:06 AM
Chris Railey Chris Railey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia
Posts: 25
Did you make two sets?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-11-2021, 10:29 AM
KenH KenH is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Baldwin Co across the bay from Mobile, AL
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Railey View Post
Did you make two sets?
Just one set now, a top 'n bottom die. Let's see how well they work before we get carried away making another set. "IF" those work ok I'm thinking I might wish a set with drawing and flat dies. A good solid 4", possible 4.5" can be squeezed between the bracket holders.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
billet, blade, bowie, building, burner, ca, carbon, chris, damascus, dies, flat, folder, forge, forging, heat, how to, image, knife, make, press, problem, question, show, small, thin


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
san mai billets matt westberry The Damascus Forum 2 05-22-2011 10:41 PM
Just the billets Drac The Damascus Forum 14 01-27-2010 08:24 PM
Bubbles in billets Dan Graves Ed Caffrey's Workshop 11 05-26-2005 11:04 AM
Billets & Blades mrsjoan The North Carolina Custom Knifemakers Guild Forum 5 06-24-2003 08:19 PM
Billets & Blades mrsjoan The North Carolina Custom Knifemakers Guild Forum 1 06-13-2002 10:40 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:15 AM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved