MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > High-Performance Blades

High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-07-2006, 11:52 PM
twistedneck twistedneck is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 93
Chef's Knife - Help with Bevel, width, edge angle

What do American chef's like in a typical 'American' style chef's knife?

Bevel - straight V, angle?

Width at spine? Width at edge before sharpening?

Angle of edge? 15deg?

Assume S30V, BG42

Last edited by twistedneck; 07-07-2006 at 11:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-08-2006, 01:36 AM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 1,050
most of the chef's I know will run to the chinese cleavers, santoku and nakiri types.

Ed
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-08-2006, 07:27 PM
DiamondG Knives's Avatar
DiamondG Knives DiamondG Knives is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dardanelle, Arkansas
Posts: 2,117
Send a message via Yahoo to DiamondG Knives
As Ed says, there seems to be a trend twords the Asian style kitchen knives. I know I like them! I no longer cook as a profession, but did for some time. I like a wider blade 2.5 to 3.5 wide. I do not do a lot of heavy chopping, so I like a thinner 1/8, 3/32 spine with a flat ground blade. I like a finer edge. I understand that it is much more delicate, but with care it isnt a problem. 10 to 12 inches seems to be a good size, althought I prefer a 10 there is sometimes a need for the length.

Just my $0.02 worth.

God Bless
Mike


__________________
"I cherish the Hammer of Thor, but I praise the hand of God"
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-08-2006, 08:22 PM
twistedneck twistedneck is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 93
DiamondG, BlackNet.. if those designs are more of a japanese influence, what would be the most Amercian (opposite of the new influence) design? Honestly, i'm real tired of Japanese influence, i work for Ford. lol.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-12-2006, 08:20 PM
twistedneck twistedneck is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 93
Instead of American Chef knife, how about French?

Since the French chefs are by far the worlds most respected, what is a typical French chef knife? I think a true american knife would be a combination of the best traits from each.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-13-2006, 01:42 AM
AUBE's Avatar
AUBE AUBE is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Cebu, Philippines (or Michigan, USA)
Posts: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiamondG Knives
As Ed says, there seems to be a trend twords the Asian style kitchen knives. I know I like them! I no longer cook as a profession, but did for some time. I like a wider blade 2.5 to 3.5 wide. I do not do a lot of heavy chopping, so I like a thinner 1/8, 3/32 spine with a flat ground blade. I like a finer edge. I understand that it is much more delicate, but with care it isnt a problem. 10 to 12 inches seems to be a good size, althought I prefer a 10 there is sometimes a need for the length.

Just my $0.02 worth.

God Bless
Mike
im not a chef by any stretch of the imagination but i worked in kitchens for a few years and my experiences led me to prefer knives like mike listed.

wide blade, thin spine (i prefer 3/32" over 1/8") 10" model, drop point. i also liked to keep a heavier knife for chopping through stuff such as ribs, and of course a smaller paring knife for peeling things and 100 other tasks. i would say about 70% my time was with a 10"drop point chef knife, 25% with a small paring knife, and the other 5% with a large knife.

a couple observations.....have an ergonomic handle and light weight. the hand tends to fatigue quickly with a heavy knife in a kitchen. make sure if you have a bolster on the knife it doesnt go all the way down to the edge. some knives have this (integral henkels come to mind) and after repeated sharpening the edge wears back and the bolster will hit the cutting board before the edge..making it harder to quickly chop through things. also on the blade where the bolster would be i liked to grind the 90degree angle off so you dont catch your finger on it on accident. jason cutter posted a knife that has this modification awhile back

http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ght=jason+chef

i never used japanese designs myself but ive had customers ask for them. i stuck to the drop point that is found in most commercial kitchens.

ok done rambling now,
-jason
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-13-2006, 08:05 AM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 1,050
'french' knife would be the classic triangle shaped chefs knife. I think if you really get down and looked at what's being use you will find it's whatever their supplier likes to stock As many resturants are not that concerned with what knife they use as they are quite bad in the abuse department. The recomendation is stainless steel , no wood and perferably no cracks or gaps, something they can toss in the dish washer and put thru abuse, they sacrifice cutting and edge holding over abuse friendly.

Also if you head over to places like cooking.com the pampered chef and other places like that and take a look at the best sellers you will see a trend.

Also if you look at the 'iron chef's on food network you will see in the original japanese version they all use custom hand made knives, in fact http://www.chefmorimoto.com/knives/knivesinternal.htm

Ed
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-13-2006, 11:16 PM
twistedneck twistedneck is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by AUBE
im not a chef by any stretch of the imagination but i worked in kitchens for a few years and my experiences led me to prefer knives like mike listed.

wide blade, thin spine (i prefer 3/32" over 1/8") 10" model, drop point. i also liked to keep a heavier knife for chopping through stuff such as ribs, and of course a smaller paring knife for peeling things and 100 other tasks. i would say about 70% my time was with a 10"drop point chef knife, 25% with a small paring knife, and the other 5% with a large knife.

a couple observations.....have an ergonomic handle and light weight. the hand tends to fatigue quickly with a heavy knife in a kitchen. make sure if you have a bolster on the knife it doesnt go all the way down to the edge. some knives have this (integral henkels come to mind) and after repeated sharpening the edge wears back and the bolster will hit the cutting board before the edge..making it harder to quickly chop through things. also on the blade where the bolster would be i liked to grind the 90degree angle off so you dont catch your finger on it on accident. jason cutter posted a knife that has this modification awhile back

http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ght=jason+chef

i never used japanese designs myself but ive had customers ask for them. i stuck to the drop point that is found in most commercial kitchens.

ok done rambling now,
-jason
Jason! thanks so much.. that's really helpful. I will integrate those two key features, light weight and 1/2 bolster, with a tapered back 90 bolster angle (to save the fingers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackNet
'french' knife would be the classic triangle shaped chefs knife. I think if you really get down and looked at what's being use you will find it's whatever their supplier likes to stock As many resturants are not that concerned with what knife they use as they are quite bad in the abuse department. The recomendation is stainless steel , no wood and perferably no cracks or gaps, something they can toss in the dish washer and put thru abuse, they sacrifice cutting and edge holding over abuse friendly.

Also if you head over to places like cooking.com the pampered chef and other places like that and take a look at the best sellers you will see a trend.

Also if you look at the 'iron chef's on food network you will see in the original japanese version they all use custom hand made knives, in fact http://www.chefmorimoto.com/knives/knivesinternal.htm

Ed
Ed, its interesting that Chef Morimoto uses a French looking knife, with CARBON STEEL! also, he uses the two features that Jason mentions above - the reduced bolster and ground back 90 deg edge.

Sure would be nice to forge a nice 01 or W2 knife out of good ole carbon steel.. but the stainless seems more useful. thoughts? He's using exotic woods and expensive materials for the handle, i was thinking about Corian - how would that perform?

Last edited by twistedneck; 07-13-2006 at 11:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-14-2006, 11:22 PM
GHEzell's Avatar
GHEzell GHEzell is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 591
Sfreddo Gaucho
Rodrigo Menezes Sfreddo made that one, and it's not a chef's knife, but... I've been itching to give a "modern Gaucho" influence to a chef's knife and see what happens... there are some design elements that would be cool on an indoor knife too.

It's New World.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-15-2006, 03:50 AM
twistedneck twistedneck is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHEzell
Sfreddo Gaucho
Rodrigo Menezes Sfreddo made that one, and it's not a chef's knife, but... I've been itching to give a "modern Gaucho" influence to a chef's knife and see what happens... there are some design elements that would be cool on an indoor knife too.

It's New World.
Cool, even more north American influence! What is that back cut by the bolster?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-30-2006, 03:55 AM
twistedneck twistedneck is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 93
Material selectoin - gain size for tool steel vs. stainless tool steel

The more research I do, the more I uncover the benefits of carbon / alloy tool steel for a good edge.

With the fine carbides from even a plain carbon steel like 1090 or super fine from austempered 52100, the edge can be very fine and strong.

Stainless on the other hand is has very large carbides - 10microns or more, resulting in a much larger STABLE edge angle. (25+ degrees). Carbides are so big they can't be held in the matrix at those edge angles.

Work done by Cliff Stamp and Roman Landes point clearly to this issue, test results show these super s30v high carbide allows to be good in slicing abrasive media, good wear, that's pretty much all those big carbides have to offer!

What stainless works the best for a chef knife with the above in mind? What is the stable edge for a stainless chef vs. std carbon steel?

Many commerial knives use some type of 0.60C stainless.. hmm.

Last edited by twistedneck; 07-30-2006 at 04:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-05-2006, 01:54 AM
twistedneck twistedneck is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 93
Follow up - after reading all of the threads about fine grain structure and good hardness performing well in a chef knife, i'll try the AEB-L route.

That's probly why most of the commercial knives use 0.60 C max (right on the saturation line). No need for more primary carbides to enhance wear resistance. Wear isn't a requirement in a chef knife.

Also, this makes sense, my chef friends asked for a 'soft' knife. What the meant was a knife they can steel easily, that wont chip, and gets sharp as a razor. Heck, these guys use the steel constantly to get the edge perfect. S30v would leave them steel-less until they can affor a diamon rod! lol.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-06-2006, 06:51 PM
azmike's Avatar
azmike azmike is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: the great american southwest-tucson, az.
Posts: 347
Check out the "outpost" for Tai's newest -- its a kitchen knife and looks like it would be way good for the tasks at hand. azmike
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-07-2006, 08:28 PM
twistedneck twistedneck is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 93
Wow, that is nice! its an outback style kitchen slicer.. very very nice. With high carbon 1095 it should be able to slice for a while w/o wearing out. he talks about the edge, only 25 to 30deg!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-09-2006, 01:12 PM
Clyde Ulmer Clyde Ulmer is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1
Thought I'd toss out a couple more ergonomic tidbits... A lot of chefs will use a "pinch" grip, where the back of the hand is parallel to the cutting surface, the blade is pinched between thumb and forefinger, and the middle joint of the second finger is against the bolster/back edge. Round over the spine (at least close to the handle), and the back edge if you're not doing a bolster. The cook will thank you!

FWIW, the most comfortable kitchen knife handle I ever felt was on a god-knows-how-old knife of my grandmother's. It was a horn handle that curved down and to the right (seen from the back of the handle). Only good for right-handers, of course.

Clyde
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
awesome, blade, chef's, chefs knife, custom, edge, forge, hand, hand made, htm, iron, japanese, kitchen, knife, knives, made, stainless, stainless steel, steel, switchblade, tips, wood


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:21 PM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
CKK Industries, Inc. All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved