Stamp/Etch Question

Yesterday I was looking at this mounths The Anvil's Ring from ABANA and was looking at the touchmark on some of the knives that Murray Carter had made. He had ether etched or stamped his last name in the blade and the touchmark seemed to be some what concave but I don't think a punch could have make details that intricate, also I don't think he could have etched his name in the blade that deep either, or could he??. That brings up the question how deep can you actually etch a blade and how long would it take?

"How Deep", is a two edged question.
A stamp is generally deeper than a stencil, but it doesn't have to be.
A stencil eats the metal away, the stamp moves it.
Both should give you a good clean mark. A stencil is governed by time and acid(with an electric current), the amount of time and the strength of the acid are the variables.
A stamp is made to go in SO far, that's that. It is governed by the mass of what is being stamped into the metal, and the amount of force applied. A rather large logo might be best with a stencil, where a simple logo mark may be best with a stamp.

Both methods reduce the "wall thickness"(or strength) of the blade in that area, and may be considered stress marks.
If stamping both sides, it is important to line the stamps up back to back to reduce the amount of stress, confining it to one area.(usually the thickest part of the blade)

I have never seen a break from a maker's mark, but the possibility exists.(just food for thought)

There are curved stamps for non-flat applications.
A stencil can be put almost anywhere.

In short, A stamp is permanant, where a stencil can most often be removed.
The stencil is like a large tatoo, where the stamp is a deeper trench.
I use a stamp because I think it looks more professional, the stencil looks like a factory add on,(to me anyway).
I find it faster, cheaper, and deeper than the stencils.

Some makers feel as strongly about the advantages of stencils vs, stamps. I quit using a stencil over a decade ago, and will never go back, but that's just me, OK?
I hope it helped.

An electro etched mark depth is determined by the amount of current applied when etching. If you apply one amp of current, you will etch so deep. Two amps will go deeper. DC current ususally marks .0001" to .0002" and AC can go to 0.010" Per IMG-electromark (the company I now buy stencil materials from).

Electro-etching is semi permanent. It can be ground completely away never to be seen again. A stamp is permanent, since the only true way to get rid of it is to grind ALL of the metal away in the area.



Have you ever heard of "Raising the serial number" on a gun? A stamp pushes the steel down, some goes out to the sides creating a birm around the stamp and the rest is compressed into the steel. When a serial number is ground off of a gun, the cops just acid etch the area and the compressed metal is not removed as fast as the softer metal surrounding it. Therefre, the soft metal eats away leaving the "Raised" serial number showing once again.

Not that anyone may care, but I think it is cool.

Bob,
Who is your contact at IMG? I know you told me, but I misplaced the e-mail. oops!!

I'm still in the process of building a homemade etching machine according to the schematics off of your web site. The only thing I'm lacking now is the consumables.

I will let you know how it goes when I start etching (if I live to tell about it, hehe)

Jason

The IMG contact

Bob,

Thanks for the information.

Jason

Thanks Geno/Bob, I didn't think you could etch your touchmark in the blade very deep, but looking at the blades in the pictues I could swear his name etch goes at least 1/64" or so in the blade. Although it is/was probobly just the lighting in the picture making it look dimentional. When I put my touchmark in my blade I use a stamp also mainly because I want a depresion for my mark and I don't want a chance of it rubing away either like a etch might from what I have herd from other people.

If you "MARK" the blade with a DC current and just turn it dark in color, it could wear off over time. If you "ETCH" it with A/C current it won't wear off, you would have to MAKE it come off by filing or grinding. The etch is deep enough that you can feel it on the blade, even with my big meaty fingers full of callouses.

I started making knives using 'finished' blades that I bought from Jantz, Koval, etc. I wanted to put a 'mark' on them so looked for an etcher since a stamp would not work with a hard blade. Even though it was several times more expensive that the alternatives, I bought a Marking Methods machine which I used to deep etch (vs. mark) the blades. I tested the depth of the etch by setting up a test piece and milling stock away until the etch was removed. I found it pretty easy to etch 4 - 5 thousands with that machine in either carbon or stainless steel (440C or ATS-34) using the 'green' heavy duty stencils that MM sells. I've been grinding my own blades now for about two years and still deep etch them rather than invest in a stamp. Also, I like the look -- but then tastes do differ...

The problems with this method that I've found are:
* When you go this deep, the etch starts to get fuzzy. The deeper you go, the more pronounced the problem.
* If you deep etch as a final step, you will get some 'bleeding' which results in a halo type appearance around the etch.
* Buffing will remove the halo, but also rounds the edges of the etch.
* The machine is obscenely expensive compared to the competition, which I believe only 'mark' the metal.

I've been experimenting with a process that I hope will solve the first three problems. I have a blade in process as I write this that may have solved it. I'll know in about a week. If there is interest, I'll post comments from my test. Might even be setup to post pics.

Robert.

Deep etching is also very hard on your stencil. Your stencil will need replacing sooner than if you etch at a smaller depth.

That's what the folks at MM say. They also say that under 'normal' useage a stencil should make hundreds of impressions. I have used my current stencil for something like 10 deep etches and can't tell the difference from new. I figure that each stencil image costs me about $1.00 (not counting the initial setup charge). So, if I had to throw it away today, it cost me $.10 per knife -- pretty negligible when the total cost of materials and shop supplies are added up.

I've found the most important aspect of long stencil life is to thoroughly clean the stencil after use. The MM 'starter kit' includes a 'cleaning tray' which seems to be nothing more than a graphite block attached by a 'ground' wire to the power supply. When I'm done etching, the stencil is loaded with 'metal residue' removed from the blade. By putting the stencil on a damp (with etchant solution) pad in the tray, and using the hand pad on it like you just did to etch the blade, the residue is transfered from the stencil to the pad in the tray. The stencil comes out squeaky clean. Wash it in cold water, blot it dry with a paper towel and store it for next use.

I have not actually 'worn out' a stencil yet. I threw my first couple out because they were loaded up with residue. That's when I got serious about trying to figure out the cleaning process. I believe that if you can use a similar cleaning process, a stencil will last for a long time. Then again, I'm only a part time maker and have only managed 10 - 12 knives per year. If you make a knife per day or more I guess this might become a significant expense. It's just one more expense that must be added to the total cost of producing the knife.

I use one of the little $20 ultrasonic jewelry cleaners to remove the oxide deposits from the stencils; works very well.

I thought about this for a couple of minutes and had to add something else. Sorry, I don't want to belabor the point but it is/was important to me and may help someone else...

The etch process allows me to work with a hard blade. By deep etching I can produce a blade that looks like it was stamped as opposed to the light mark that is currently popular with many production houses. Because I can work with a hard blade, I don't have a bucket of junk blades under the work bench that have my mark stamped in them -- I do produce the 'whoops' while grinding, but the blade isn't marked yet. I don't mark the blade until I'm happy with it, which means the etch is about the last step before it goes to the buffer.

So, for me, it really doesn't matter if it costs me $5.00 per blade to etch -- it's worth it, although as I said in the previous post, I believe the actual cost to be about 10 cents.

Don,

What solvent are you putting in the jewelry cleaner? How are youstoring your stencil?

This also would reflect on the lifetime of the stencil.

I mix the supplied detergent with water, Bob; let it stew (plugged in) for 10 minutes or so, then rinse and air-dry the stencil.

I keep the stencils in current use in the case with the etcher.