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  #1  
Old 08-11-2016, 04:55 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Unhappy A Customer requests a gut hook.

I have a kit knife gut hook blade I've had for years, but never finished it as the "hook" doesn't seem adequate for the task. It measures just 0.236 or 6mm at the beginning and narrows down from there to just under 3/16", the knife is 0.135 thick. The knife itself is RC 58.6 as measured on our Rockwell tester at work back in 2008. It is supposed to be made of ATS 34 since it was made in Japan I would assume that's true. I bought several kit knives back in the 90s and filed them away for future use as I was driving OTR truck so most of my knife making was confined to hand and dremel work. I remember reading something about gut hooks not being all that great in some outdoor magazines so never made a knife out of it.

Anyway would it behoove me to open the "hook area up more? and would two days under dry ice help to toughen it up some? I have spoken to metallurgists who say nothing less than sub -200F degrees helps the austenite-martensite conversion and others that disagree as long as the -105F dry ice is held for 2 days it will accomplish the same. I'm from experience, rather inclined to believe the latter for high chromium steels do seem to get tougher and more abrasion resistant. I know it increased D2 by close to a full point of hardness after 48 hours, though no real measurable effect on O1. Liquid nitrogen didn't perform much better, but those parts were sent out to a professional HT company as our oven would only take a 26" by 4" part efficiently. So I'm not sure of their process. We made cutting blades to 48" for paper cutting machines ("fold and tear here" perforations). They were very very tough and lasted a long time. Which was good as I hated welding and check an straightening them until I figured out to overcompensate before HT. I really hated the short ones I had to heat treat and I always put them under dry ice in diesel fuel. Using acetone is madness was my opinion.
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Old 08-11-2016, 05:36 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I remember seeing the magazine cover that showed the first gut hook knife, only they didn't call it that. Everyone just looked at it and decided that's what it was. The actual purpose was to catch a coffee pot bail so that it could be safely lifted off a camp fire.

My one word of warning about gut hooks is that if you make one then be prepared to make a lot more of them. If you don't think you'll like making them then don't make the first one.

I've always heard that cryo after the first hour or so doesn't do anything noticeable to a blade but I always left mine in over night as a matter of convenience. I cryoed everything including O1 simply because I had the LN available. For O1 I didn't see any additional hardness from the process but it seemed to add some toughness. If you want to cryo your kit blade then do so, it might not help but it can't hurt ....


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Old 08-11-2016, 05:48 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I remember that about picking up the bail of a pot now you reminded me of it Ray. The actual gut hooks I've seen were kind of big and this knife I have it would be of the pick up hot handle variety cause it sure is too thin for gut cutting it seems to me. As Bob Hope used to sing," Thanks for the memories" Ray.
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Old 08-11-2016, 06:21 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Red face 2nd Question Ray

You warned if I made one to prepare to make more. Are they that popular if they work right? If they are then I'll make them, but properly as to be useful. What is the best way to do that? Looks like I would have to sell a thin round fine diamond sharpener with them too. I have seen a gut cutter accessory that is separate from the knife as well and watched it being used on a hunting show and it had a rather large hook area that wouldn't seem too feasible unless I made a wide skinner like in this pic I downloaded to show a stainless knife I treated with vinegar and salt for four days.



I made that knife some time ago at work as I liked the shape at the time. Problem with it is it's too hard and getting the scratches out is proving hard. It has a bit of a convex grind. Think I'll just use 600 grit gator belt on it, but I could grind a big gut hook into it about the middle. I'm of the school of thought that skinners should be hard, RC 60+.
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Old 08-11-2016, 07:18 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I'm not saying they are that popular - like anything else they have their admirers. What I am saying is simply a rule of thumb that I learned to live by (or, at least, make knives by) and that is that whatever it is you may make that's what people see. What they see is what they order as most seem to have very little imagination. Maybe there is only a few hundred people in the whole country that want a gut hook, or thinks they want a gut hook, or suddenly realizes that a gut hook on their knife would look cool but if you make one they'll find you ....


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Old 08-11-2016, 07:39 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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When I was asked to build the last Hunter knife (posted here several weeks ago) in the middle of the discussion the customer said, "Hey, do you make one with a gut hook?" I simply replied, "No".

Personally I think gut hooks are silly, like those butt-out plugs. Learn to use a knife and field dress a deer. If you NEED a gut hook to field dress an animal, you don't know how to field dress. Just looks to me as a novelty and an unnecessary complication. It also messes up the symmetry and beauty of a knife and looks silly IMO. Kind of like putting a bottle opener on a blade. You want all that go buy a Swiss Army knife.

I understand what Ray is saying. I've reached a point in my jewelry making career that there are some things I just don't do any more because I just don't need to, don't want to, pain in the butt. Money isn't a motivator any longer in those cases.

Heck, money is way overrated anyway. :-)


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Old 08-11-2016, 08:20 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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There are those, maybe some anti-knife types, who hold that the gut hook is meant to draw out a knifing victim's intestines with. I also have heard that they are useless for dressing large game.

Doug


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Old 08-11-2016, 09:01 PM
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Based on my knifemaking experience, when someone requests a "gut hook" it means two things....
1. The person requesting it has no knowledge of/or experience with knives
2. Trouble...for a long time to come......a "gut hook" MIGHT work well the first time and individual uses it, but you will forever be plagued with repairing it from the individual wrecking it while trying to resharpen it, or at the very least sharpening it for them 10X more then the blade will ever need to be sharpened.

Long story short, for most who request it, they think it's something "cool" to have, but once they try to use it, they quickly come to hate it.
I made a few of them early in my career, learned to regret it, and simply will not make them ever again.


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Old 08-11-2016, 09:54 PM
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Exactly as Ed said !!


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Old 08-11-2016, 10:07 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Thumbs up Appreciated advice.

Thanks you guys. I'll simply tell my customer pretty much what y'all said. It's for picking a hot pot of coffee or pot off the fire by the bail and nothing much more except to cut paracord. There are separate guthooks with ringed holders that take razors for gutting and that is what they want.

The knife I have looks very nice and I'll sell it as a extra camping tool and a cord cutter, but not a gut hook. It certainly isn't a stabbing knife, though they all could be pressed into service for defense like a ball peen hammer can.

I do not offer lifetime sharpening, if they stop by I'll do it for them, but I ain't mailing it to them. For $10 dollars I offer them a Lansky sharpening tool and tell them to follow the instructions on the package. It includes a long round tapered diamond sharpener for serrated blades or a gut hook. My last customer loves his Lansky's.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:13 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Take this for what its worth I don't have experience making gut hooks, but number one I don't see a real function of it any thing you can do with that you can do with the blade as some one said cutting para cord to me its just as easy to do it with the blade. second they are extremely ugly to me. so if something has no functional plus AND no aesthetic value whats the point to me waste of time and money...I did see a full tang knife somewhere a long time ago where a piece of the tang was cut off and formed to a gut hook and put back on the tang with some kind of pivot so it could be swung out...takes away the ugliness but still to much work. as far as cryo I have always used liquid nitrogen never dry ice and some people say dry ice works but MOST of the guys that have been doing this a long time say liquid nitrogen is the way to go. that being said it also depends on the steel I don't have a hardness tester but I have done normal testing on both 440c and 1084 with and without cryo my conclusion is the 1084 made absolutely no noticeable difference. the 440 c yeh it made a difference deffinitly but that also doesn't mean you cant make a great knife with out it one of the blades I carry a lot is 440c with out cryo and it works great...cryo is better tho. liquid nitrogen evaporates very very quickly if you don't have the right container for it (a dewar very expensive) I found a local weld supply store that will put it in a cooler for me ( I use a THICK Styrofoam cooler it is from a mail order food source and is a lot thicker than one you can buy in a gas station) I put this cooler inside a box surrounded by house insulation even with all this 2-3 days (depending on temp and how many times you open it) also you loose a lot on the way home sloshing around in the cooler while in a car (avoid pot holes and flying around corners trust me first time i didn't think about that lost half of it by the time I got home second time I was carefull driving and lost less than 1/4 of it so it does matter) makes it go even quicker I have said this before but this is why I profile a batch of knives and HT them all at the same time otherwise it would get very expensive...just my opinion but again the gut hook thing no real experience in making them
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Old 08-12-2016, 01:51 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Talking

Like I said, it's a Japanese kit knife I bought back in the 90s and I'll sell it as it is with the description it's for grabbing a hot pot off the fire type hook. I will not call it a gut hook as it would have to be bigger than it is to function. I'll stop and buy a block of dry ice and put it and another knife in between two pieces until it evaporates which takes about 3 days in the styrofoam box I made with 3" thick walls. Won't hurt anything anyway, probably help. Heck, I think I'll cut it off with a cutoff wheel. Will give the end of the knife an unusual look.
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:02 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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You know, there are two things known as a "guthook" and dtec just jogged my memory.

What I was referencing and I believe others were as well, is that little reverse hook on the end of a hunting knife that is sharpened down in the hook part. Its purpose was to hook into the belly of a game animal and by pulling, supposedly zips his hide open thus avoiding cutting into the gut. Obviously designed for those who probablty shouldn't be usning a knife to start with. Just a "gadget" to sell knives that realistically is useless.

The other I believe is at times called a gut hook but aka a "bird hook". These typically are incorporated in a folder and the hook actually folds away like a blade. Its (legitimate) purpose is to insert into the vent of upland birds to extract the guts thus preventing spoilage in the field.


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Old 08-12-2016, 02:28 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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Gut hook
http://www.google.com/search?q=fixed...w=1280&bih=800

Bird hook
http://www.google.com/search?q=bird+...w=1280&bih=800


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Old 08-12-2016, 09:36 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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This picture is a true gut hook.



This is what I saw on a hunting show used to gut a big Bison. It takes a replaceable razor blade and is a knife of it's own. Thanks for the link to the pics Goater. The guide who used it said it was efficient and fast on big game. It was on a game ranch in NM and the big bull bison was charging. Took four shots from a big caliber rifle to bring it down. Wished I could remember what it was they used.

Last edited by jimmontg; 08-12-2016 at 09:54 PM. Reason: addition
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