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  #46  
Old 09-02-2016, 05:49 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I stopped using 1084/95 for most things as O1 is my preference hands down for a superior high carbon knife, but it just a personal preference. I am more about edge holding ability and toughness and proper HT of O1 is just plain better except for the differential HT which is hard to do with it.
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  #47  
Old 09-02-2016, 06:02 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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thanks guys, I just read that 1095 is a shallow hardening steel, does that mean that you would have to put in the bevels before HT ing....I usually HT right after profile no bevels yet but if I was to do that would it harden through so the edge would be hard after grinding??? jim I didn't mean that the hamon not being where I wanted was because of the 1084 just pointing out I have only done one ....oh and I just used a thick batch of satinite for the clay (I know probilly not the best choice but it was what I had and I was just playing around this was when I first started making knives) but I am up for giving it another shot
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  #48  
Old 09-03-2016, 12:13 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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If you started out with a knife blank made of 1095 that was maybe 3/16's to a quarter of an inch thick with fine grain structure it might not form martensite except at the very corners of the bar unless you have a very aggressive quenchant. Grinding the bevels after heat treating could leave with a knife shaped object made of pearletic steel. However, you could correspond with Kevin Cashin on this. He has had good results heat treating rather thick, lets say 1/4" thick 1095.

All your shallow hardening alloys are going to be like this. Generally it's best to do your primary grinding and then heat treat the blade. You could well end up with an "automatic" hamon with a pearlite spine and ricasso on the blade. Of course you will not be able to get a hardness reading on the ricasso.

If you keep your blank thickness 1/8" or less you could heat treat then grind in your bevels.

Doug


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  #49  
Old 09-03-2016, 12:46 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Shallow Heat Treat is not about knives.

More about thicker parts like I did in the machine shop. I hated the stuff because you couldn't get an even hardness. Remember thickness makes a difference with many alloys. 1095 is more prone to being softer in the center of let's say a brake die (for bending metal) or a thick punch. We never used 1095 for those apps. More like the chrome moly 4140 stuff or almost all our shearing blades were O1. A thin knife the shallow HT wouldn't show much of a difference. That said the 1084 has different alloy elements in just a tiny bit amounts, but the .10 carbon and less manganese in 1095 does make a difference. I'm trying to remember what some of the elements did. 1080 has more manganese than 1095 usually as I recall. Anyway there is a difference besides carbon content. Miniscule amounts of some elements make a big difference like sulphur or phosphorus. Too much nickel reduces hardness, but increases toughness and flexibility. 15N20 is a good knife steel by itself, but the thickest I can find it is .130". Great for saws, axes and Damascus though.

I do not understand why you grind your bevels after HT though. Uses up belts faster and runs the risk of overheating the edges and change the HT. Do 80-90% grind before HT, not after is my advice.
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  #50  
Old 09-03-2016, 10:24 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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ok thanks guys seems I will have to grind first I have done it a couple times however when I first started ray had kinda suggested HT ing first and mentioned that that was the way he did it so I followed suit on that and it always worked so didn't bother trying it the other way more than once or twice
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  #51  
Old 09-03-2016, 11:00 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I always HT first and then grind, avoids warping problems, decarbed surface problems, and makes it easier to straighten the blade if it does take a slight warp. That said, not all steels are the same and I never used 1095 that was more than 3/32" so I didn't really have the shallow hardening issue to deal with.

On the rare occasion when I made a blade that was 1/4" thick I usually would do some of the grinding pre-HT no matter what steel it was and definitely if it had been 1095.......


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  #52  
Old 09-03-2016, 11:18 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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alright as you said not all steels are the same I think I am going to get a bar of 1095 and I also have a smaller bar of cpm s35vn and I think I am going to get another smaller bar they have as overstock and see how much I can learn about those to steels....I don't think ill use the s35vn all that much because of the price but it does seem like a really good steel and another knife maker (I actually found him on another forum when I was searching for knife makers close to me and he is in NYC I am about 45 mins from him haven't met in person once I get my licence back I am goig to go to a meeting him and a few others have in the city once a month ) but he told me that he learned the s35vn because a couple people requested it and also said that if a customer has no knownledge on steel type it doesn't matter but people that he described as "knowing a little but not enough" see that s35vn and think its a miracle steel and want that so he doesn't make many blades from it but when he does they usually sell quick...cant hurt to learn something new, between 1084 and 1095 say the HT is right and a satin finish on both is the 1095 NOTICABLY different is rust resistence or about the same? I haven't heard back from njsteel as to what company's spec sheet I should use yet
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  #53  
Old 09-03-2016, 12:26 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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My general feeling about 1095 with regard to rust resistance is that there isn't any worth mentioning. 1095 blades require care more than most.

S30V was the first steel ever designed in modern times specifically as a cutlery steel. Every other steel we use was originally designed for some other purpose so it isn't hard to see why some people think it is a super steel. The vast majority of hunters I made were S30V and they did, in fact, sell very quickly and they do perform extremely well if you get the HT right. The later versions like S35VN did not seem much different to me so I would happily use either one ....


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  #54  
Old 09-03-2016, 02:31 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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Don't know about rust resistance but I've been carrying an 0-1 blade for about three weeks now and it is just now starting to turn a little darker, taking on a patina. Heck, cut a lemon or tomato with 1095 and it will change almost immediately.

FWIW I grind my blades about 85%-90% then HT then finish grinding. If I take the grind almost there before HT leaving only superficial grinding post HT I've ended up with some orange peel type texture on some blades. Mostly with 1084. It shows up when you're almost to the finished state. (Of course) Don't know if that is some carbon deposit near the surface that shows or what. But now after HT I grind with 120 grit, 220, 400 then satin finish with a ScotchBrite wheel.

I've just used up the last of my 1084 and for now intend to stick with 1095 and 0-1.


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  #55  
Old 09-03-2016, 02:39 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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hmm I may think about getting more 1084 for this knife with a hammon and leve the 1095 alone for now the the advantages don't justify the morey or the time learning a new HT.....WNC I have gotten some of the orange peel with 440c when I grinded check on brass rod and re tempered after the re temper it showed up
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  #56  
Old 09-03-2016, 07:27 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Knife steel alloys and heat treating can be simple or complicated.

But always fascinating. I wished I had access to a HT kiln, but circumstances prevent that. I sometimes use a forge for HT 15N20, 1084 and even O1 and old Nicholson and Heller files. Last thing I forged was a Danish Viking axe head. I sold that so fast it wasn't funny. I don't usually forge knives, I do stock removal. Using the forge still hardens the O1, just not optimally, but I have a small ice chest I put dry ice in and put the blades in between two 5lb. blocks after I leave them in my freezer for an hour or so. Direct contact from room temp could leave microcracks from what I read. 3 days is how long the dry ice last, by then it's more than half gone. There is a noticeable difference in the O1, but in 15N20 I don't see any difference.

The HT of those two is close to the same except soak time. The 15N20 doesn't need to be held for very long where the O1 does as Goater and others pointed out to me in a post awhile back about O1 as I was just following the 1 hour per inch of thickness rule. So next blacksmithing classes they have down at the little college here I'll be treating the O1 in the forge. I still get my RC60 hardness anyway, I just have to stay on top of it. If I had a kiln then I would know what my as quenched hardness would be.

Have fun Dtech and enjoy, I sold a small skinner today for $100 and have a commission to make a custom Oyster Shucker for my Doctor's father. It will be a different shape with a heavy brass guard not just to protect the hand if you slip from hitting the edge of the shell, but also to use for leverage for oysters and clams. If it is a hit I will borrow the money from my son and have a small company do a 100 knives for me and patent the knife if it hasn't already been patented. Though I'm sure it has, but I haven't seen anything quite like the design. I made one before and a friend who used to do shucking for a living loved it enough to pay $75 for a shucker, but then it did have cocobolo handles and a nicely tooled sheath. I sold a boot knife too to a soldier about to deploy to Afghanistan for materials and HT for $35. Good thing I don't have to do this for a living, LOL. I sell low to friends when I could get more, but oh well it isn't like I'm going broke either. The axe was $300 with a Norwegian Laminated knife thrown in too. I'm getting better at leather as well. Watching those free Tandy videos is worthwhile I will say.
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  #57  
Old 09-03-2016, 07:37 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I wouldn't bother with a patent for a knife. these days you can patent just about anything if you have a few thousand dollars to spend on the process. Nobody checks to see if anybody else has done anything similar. After that though, the patent is basically worthless unless you have plenty of money to spend on lawyers. All someone has to do is make a slight change to the design and your only recourse is an expensive legal battle. Often as not, the party with the most money will win. Patents are useful when they can cover a fundamental process. Other than that they are about as useful as a vanity ####### plate ....


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  #58  
Old 09-03-2016, 07:50 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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You're right Ray, it wouldn't be worth it especially since I'd be selling on Amazon and the Chinese would just rip it off anyway. That is if it was successful, but each knife though the same blank would have customizable features like choice of handle material and sheath from plain to fancy sort of thing. Or maybe I should just sell on Ebay and Etsy?

Last edited by jimmontg; 09-03-2016 at 08:51 PM.
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  #59  
Old 09-04-2016, 08:39 AM
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Sell it through any and all venues that you can. The important thing is to sell a lot of them before anyone starts to copy it. That way, yours will be known as the original and the others will be 'copies'. There is always a significant group of customers who will pay a premium price for an 'original' . That way, you get paid for your design and the others are left with having to make cheaper versions because they can't beat you on quality or reputation .....


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  #60  
Old 09-04-2016, 09:24 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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yeh jim I also have sold some at discounted prices to family and close friends. I would think that is expected. I have been working on design of a web site in my spare time and I think I will also make a facebook page. once I get enough done I will upload everything I want to have at least 10 knives ready to go out the door before I do that. I am also thinking about doing some you tube "how to" videos. I have been told that is one of the best things as far as free advertising, I know one guy that says he only sold 1 or 2 a month when he put up a web page and facebook page. once he started making videos his and now has a 2-3 month wait and also have some blades water jetted for him, sends them out for HT, has the bevels cnc ed, then cleans up the bevels and handle himself. he did this to speed up the process and did them in batches of 50-60 at a time now he has a waiting list for those as well. he said his sales skyrocketed after doing videos I am sure it takes a bunch of money to have a batch of 50 blades cut, HTed, and cnc ed. like everything else takes money to make money, I don't have that money and I don't expect to do that well but I do think making videos would definitely help. Ray I know you make your dvd's. JIM, or any ones else reading...any of you guys ever make any videos? oh jim I also agree with ray having your knife patented is next to use less and definitely not worth the money , unless.... your knife has lasers can cure cancer and solve world hunger LOL then you would have something!
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