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The Outpost This forum is dedicated to all who share a love for, and a desire to make good knives, and have fun doing it. We represent a diverse group of smiths and knifemakers who bring numerous methods to their craft.

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  #1  
Old 03-20-2008, 05:35 PM
metalbender metalbender is offline
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a knifemaker's rant

'they' will spend 5k on a custom made rifle, 1k on a custom tillered recurve bow, untold thousands on various accesories like tree stands clothing atv's etc, but will tell you that their 40$ spyderco or walmart buck knife is all they 'need'
its like um bub, a remmy 700 at 650$ and a bear compound at 350$ is all you 'need' to shoot a deer, you'd buy a custom knife for the same esoteric reasons you would a custom rifle or bow.
ok rant off, had to vent. *walks off mumbling*


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  #2  
Old 03-20-2008, 06:56 PM
Carcara Carcara is offline
 
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I bet you would be surprised by how many custom knifemakers carry a 40 dollar Spyderco in their pockets as an every day utility knife...
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  #3  
Old 03-20-2008, 08:11 PM
metalbender metalbender is offline
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ive got a 10 $ box cutter folder in my pocket, but if im going to be out in the wilderness, ya know 30 yards from my front door, Id definitely strap on a good solid handmade camp knife


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  #4  
Old 03-20-2008, 10:20 PM
Carcara Carcara is offline
 
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Another thought is how many famous custom makers have sold a design to Columbia River, Kabar, Kershaw, Spyderco , Benchmade, etc. One would think they think well enough of the mundane factory ware that will carry the name of their design. Even if a
original of theirs will be priced 10 times what the factory version will be, and not made
from mediocre medium carbon stainless steel.
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  #5  
Old 03-20-2008, 10:20 PM
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TexasJack TexasJack is offline
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Cheap knives often have great advertising. Lots of people think "surgical steel" means something special. Anything with 'titanium' in the name is believed to be magic. (I saw a razor in the store the other day that said "harder than titanium!", which, of course, steel is!!) They just don't know any better.

Conversely, very few people buy ONE custom knife! Once they've used a really good blade and didn't have to sharpen it 4 times while gutting a deer, they're hooked. Same thing when they see a beautiful design.

As a knifemaker, you CANNOT compete with factory knives. They can produce them faster, cheaper, and market the crap out of them. To make money, your knives have to have something special - something the factories in China just can't produce. Then you have to get them noticed.

The best way to become a rich knifemaker is to marry someone with lots of money.


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  #6  
Old 03-20-2008, 11:34 PM
Sammy Mickel Sammy Mickel is offline
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I no longer get the chance to make knives but keep an eye on things since my other stuff took over my free time. I have learned my lesson with factory knives especially folders. To me nothing is better than fixed blade that rides your side well. In fact the latest purchase I made came with a extra kydex sheath that has the option of a cross draw and it is absolutely awesome. Tire kickers are allways a pain especially when you spend your time trying to enlighten them to the benefits of your product.
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  #7  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:58 AM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalbender
'they' will spend 5k on a custom made rifle, 1k on a custom tillered recurve bow, untold thousands on various accesories like tree stands clothing atv's etc, but will tell you that their 40$ spyderco or walmart buck knife is all they 'need'
its like um bub, a remmy 700 at 650$ and a bear compound at 350$ is all you 'need' to shoot a deer, you'd buy a custom knife for the same esoteric reasons you would a custom rifle or bow.
ok rant off, had to vent. *walks off mumbling*

I'll do you one better--they will spend all that money on guns, ammo, clothing, decoys, ATV's, and a truck--and maybe even a good knife.

BUT--they expect to go hunting on someone else's land for FREE.
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  #8  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:07 PM
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ranger1 ranger1 is offline
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It's the toy of the month club.(as we called it in the gun business).Got to have the baddest and the best need it or not. I know people who have heavy barreled sniper rifles that can't print a 2" shot group at 200 yards.
A customer of mine purchased a 11" blade bowie with a survival handle.He has since ordered the same knife with a 12 1/2" blade.I don't think he has ever spent the night in the woods.(I know him personally). It's not about need of use.Its about haveing the biggest and best.it's about bragging rights.And,Thats cool with me. It helps sell knives.


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  #9  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:05 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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With me, owning such things is a matter of piece of mind.

For example, I have:
1911 $350 - fired three times
AK-47 $500 - fired three times
CAR-15 A2 $750 - never fired
A drawer full of KITH knives (waiting for a display case) $priceless - none ever used
5 kilts $800 total - each worn two or three times
gun safe $200 - never locked
the list goes on and on...

Some would call this a huge waste of money (my wife for example), but I just enjoy having them, because, well..., I'm just a big kid, and #### it..., I wanted them! Plus, they are there if ever I need them and the value of such items is pretty stable.

The trick is finding a way to tap into that same vien of buyers. I think ya gotta be cool--don't try too hard--when a wide eyed fella comes up to your table with that sceptical, but still very impressed, look in his eye, be courtious of course, but bolster the percieved value by the way you conduct the conversation. It's kinds hard to articulate, but sticking to your price is one way to protect the image of your work. As a person who hates dickering, I accociate value with price, and I like to think I'm smart enough that I can look at an item and determine if there are qualities that justify the expense. If not, I'll ask.

Maybe its just me, and I've never been to a pure knife show, but at gun shows, I hang around the tables with the expensive guns that have signs instructing you to ask permission before touching them. This is the 'perceived' quality I'm looking for. This is the kind of seller I like--someone who wishes to protect my gun from disrespectful hands until I decide to buy it. Besides, who wants a woman everyone else has fondeled in the last two days?

Just random thoughts...


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  #10  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:40 PM
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Chris Daigle Chris Daigle is offline
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All good thoughts here. If someone tells me that they can get "X" knife for $50 bucks I usually support their decision, or give them an option in their price range. Afterall, nothing wrong with the Buck 110 right?

To the ones with real interest, they simply "get it". They understand that it's being handmade, for them. If it was ordered by them, they probably played a part in choosing the steel, guard/bolster material, handles etc. Let's see them do that with a rifle and come out as cheap.

But the real thanks comes when your knife gets put into the hands of someone who will use it. Productions won't fare as well as a good custom. We control the steel, the edge geometry and the fit and finish. The others are made for the masses taking into consideration the idiot factor (i.e. thick edges etc.).

The best thing you can do is to carry one of your own and offer it as a comparison.

Chris
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  #11  
Old 03-21-2008, 11:04 PM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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I don't know whether, among the hunting community, there is an awareness of custom knives the way there is for custom guns.

The sad part of that is, even the concept of a custom gun has been commercialized. There is the popular notion, at least among many of the gun forums, that there is no such thing as an accurate rifle out of the box. Brand X won't be accurate until you replace the trigger springs, lap the barrel followed by a strict break-in regimen (that is, if a commercial drop-in barrel isn't available), and replace the factory stock with something synthetic that makes the gadgeteer think that he is properly floating the barrel. Oh yeah, and add a magazine the length of your forearm. Generally this is all done before the first shots are fired from the gun as it came out of the box, because after all, if those guys talked on the forums about the awesome groups their as-sent-from-the factory gun shot from a cold start, no one would believe them.

Much of it is driven by peer pressure to have the baddest toys, as Andy mentioned, and there is a lot of hype behind it. To those guys a Busse or Stryder knife IS custom, even though they are about as custom as the rifles they've modded themselves. If you can't afford one of those, then you flash around your Spyderco, Benchmade, or Cold Steel knife.

You almost have to make a name for yourself as a custom maker that makes cool knives that are worthy of the hype. But then again, that IS a fickle crowd.
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  #12  
Old 03-23-2008, 01:47 AM
metalbender metalbender is offline
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i think Ive hit the nail on the head in anouther forum, massive ignorance
Ill not cross post the site but here let me share what one person said, and my response to said person.


them
"Sure.
What everyone has said.
Custom rifles are "better"...custom knives are "better".
Mostly.
Actually, I have heard a couple of horror stories about custom knives.
Like the bloke who bought an expensive damascus hunter.
Snapped at the tang under light use.
Owner found the "Tang" was a large nail welded to the blade.
Maker said "you weren't supposed to USE it".

But, heck!
Mankind has survived using stone, copper, bronze and iron knives for most of recorded history.

Great steels are a 20th century thing.
LATE 20th, mostly.

Most of the current $50-100 factory knives are better than anything that came prior to WW2.

They WORK for tens of thousands of hunters and campers.

Same for guns.


I like quality.
But let's not get toooooo snobbish. Ok?
I wouldn't mind seeing feedback from Buck 110 users who have dressed out game.
Much game."


my response
thats just simply not true
steel out of damascus that to this day the closest we can come to is faux damascus ie pattern weld.
wootz crucible steels of India, some of the finest small batch steels ever made by man
iron core steel bitted saxon saexes and norwegian swords.
the toledo swords of 16th century spain
the sheffield steels of the 17th to 20th century ( 300 years of fine cutlery)

the 10th to 15th century findings throughout York that showed a variety of hand bloomeried steels.
japanese swordsmiths and ironworkers that have been making some of the finest small batch steels the world has ever seen for the last 500 years using the SAME techniques today.
the list goes on and on.

nothing personal but you obviously dont know much about the history and manufacturing of steel which leads me to believe you likely are ignorant of the various ways to heat treat steels, ie austempering, pearlite , martsenite, microcarbides, alloy banding, all the techniques available to handforging for centuries and the simple benefits of a differential temper over a oven temper
there are some excellent monographs on historical metalurgy available just for the asking via your local university, also you may want to have a LONG conversation with Dr Jim Hrisoulas about the topic.
as far as having a knife made with a nail welded to the tang *shudders* I certainly hope your friend warned everyone about such a scumbag. ALL of my work comes with a lifetime guarantee.. I repair or replace for free, as do most credible makers.
is it worth it to spend 250 on a handmade custom skinner? skin a couple of moose out with one then do it with a 50$ walmart knife. tell me which one perfoms better.
I highly doubt anything coming out of the box stores would be able to handle the cutting and chopping tests of the ABS journeymans test.
you get what you pay for.

in conclusion and as you partially pointed out .. its not "just a knife" its mankinds first tool. ie his most important one and the one that made all the others possible. If one can afford it why skimp on something thats been such a vital part of our history"


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  #13  
Old 03-23-2008, 05:19 PM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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Maybe he considers the great steels of the 20th century to be anything stainless in the 400 series. . .
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  #14  
Old 03-23-2008, 08:16 PM
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pipecrafter pipecrafter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armory414
Maybe he considers the great steels of the 20th century to be anything stainless in the 400 series. . .
Beer -> everywhere

Dammit! That was my last stone IPA!

The internet is a small place, so I won't mention names or context, but I have an acquaintance who's convinced that a mystery steel knife from a "custom" factory is better than something from a craftsman. Well, I guess that's true if you never intend to use it.


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