folder 4 - suggestions welcome

[Ed Caffrey]

Will,

Two reasons that I'm against the tip up carry design on folders...

1. When I first started producing folders, I was talking with Kit Carson on the phone, and mentioned my plans to make my folders with the clip on the rear for tip carry. Kit flat told me that if he ever caught me making a folder that way, that he would come to Montana an kick my butt. He explained that there is a huge liability issue with folders that are built in that manner, and that there had been several law suits where the courts had decided that the maker was negligent by attaching the clip in that manner...and the maker had been decimated by the courts decision(s).

2. I was branding cattle at a local ranch, I was on the ground holding down a calf, and needed my knife in a hurry, I grabbed and pulled.....the blade had jarred open slightly from all the bouncing around that day, and as I pulled, the blade tried to open in my pocket, and wound up going through my jeans, and made a nice deep gash in my thigh. (this was a factory knife, with a tip up carry design) Whats funny is that this occurred about a year AFTER I had spoken to Kit and received his warning.....it sure made a believer out of me!

Like you, I've been all over the world packing knives, and the only knife incidents I've ever had were self inflicted. But when your selling knives to the public, I believe its just asking for trouble to build a folder with tip up carry. It may be that nothing ever happens, and if so thats great, but having first hand experience with what CAN happen, has made me understand that the risk isn't worth it. So if someone wants a tip up carry design in a folder from me, I politely tell them that I do not do that, give them the reasons why, and if necessary direct them to someone who might be willing to take the risk that I am not.


I'm not going to try to tell anyone how they should build their knives, but if asked, I will offer the reasons why I will, or will not do something, and hope that they won't have to learn the hard way. As I said earlier, its all about the risks.....I took plenty of them during my military career, and know that God had his hand upon me for many of them, otherwise I wouldn't be here now. But theres a difference between necessary risks, and unnecessary risks, in my opinion, the tip up carry for a maker is an unnecessary one.

[SVanderkolff]

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. It is really great to be able to get solid feedback from experienced makers. This is how we learn.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to help.
Steve

[W. Leavitt]

Ed,

Thanks for taking the time to provid a well thought out and clear response to my question. I've never had an issue like that and was curious. I was pretty sure I knew you were AGR military and had deployed a few times but I don't trust my memory half the time and the other half I'm pretty sure I'm wrong lol

I do understand about the potential for liability and work to limit the potential for lawsuits in my knives.

Product liability is a funny thing. I used to umpire baseball, College down to 14yo. There was a great mask made for umpires that was made out of polymer resins (why you ask? remember an umpire wears his mask twice as much as any catcher in a game.) It was awesome mask that we all loved until reports started to come in about tipped baseballs passing through the opening. Lawsuits started coming in, only problem was that the labs could not reproduce the event. Most of us discounted it but a few started going back to their metal masks. I was working a D3 game with a good buddy who was wearing a plastic mask. Tipped baseball, blood coming out of the bottom of the mask, my pard pulls the mask off, ball drops out lol I come in to check on him. He asks me "how do I look" (he'd kinda vain) I laugh at his broken nose, the catcher says "you look like @#$@# but it's an improvement." He got his spare mask out of his bag, I got deposed later. I guess the whole point of that story is to say just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean I won't and I don't feel like being deposed again especially about a known hazard.

Thanks again for the info.

Will

[Frank Niro]

Thank you again Ed , I sure appreciate the "floating " pin information. I never get to shows and my communication with other makers is almost 100% in the forums. Would you piease give me a bit more on the pin positioning on the blade ? Thanks again in any case !!! Frank.

[Don Robinson]

Originally Posted by Frank Niro

Thank you again Ed , I sure appreciate the "floating " pin information. I never get to shows and my communication with other makers is almost 100% in the forums. Would you piease give me a bit more on the pin positioning on the blade ? Thanks again in any case !!! Frank.

Me too, Ed. It sounds good to me. Can you possibly add details as Frank asked, and if possible a photo/s of WIP showing the floating pin?

Hi there, Frank.

And thanks for the help, Ed.

[plain ol Bill]

I'm gonna jump in here since I took some pics of this the other day. I'll try to explain as I go guys - and Tom Ferry taught me the process too! I drill the hidden pin hole in the blade at a position above the pivot hole and clearing the washers I use. I then assemble the blade w/ one liner. I time the blade to the open position, clamp it, and center drill thru the blade to mark the liner. Move the blade to the closed position, clamp it, and again center drill thru the blade to mark the liner. Assemble the two liners together using alignment pins you have already drilled to keep things in line (you do this don't you!!!) and drill the holes in the liners for the hidden pins. I then take the liners to the mill and put on the rotary table with the pivot holes in a fixture. Drop the mill bit in one hole and note the degree mark on table. Rotate table and drop the mill bit in the other hole and note the degree mark again. Now you can rotate back to first hole drop bit in and cut the slot using a 1/8 mill bit. After the slot is cut in the liners I like to come back and remill the slot using a 5/32 mill cutter. This allows 1/64 clearance on either side of the pin in the slot. CAUTION -- do NOT cut the ends of the 1/8 slot with the larger bit. The ends of the slot is where your blade is timed too and any material removal there will rotate the blade further. The pin should "float" in the blade so I ream just oversize for a 1/8" pin in the blade so it will float by running the reamer in about 4-6 times (a reamer cuts on each trip thru the hole).
Ed is this how you are doing it?

[Don Robinson]

Thanks a bunch, POB. That makes it very clear.That's the way they make flippers too I believe. Someday I gotta make a flipper.

[Frank Niro]

I sure appreciared that Bill !!!! the pictures with thge description really do it !!! I want to thank Ed again for bringing this to the foums ! Frank