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  #16  
Old 01-27-2016, 08:06 AM
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Wow! Great Story Rocky. Thanks for telling us the story. That was very generous of the Widow to give you that knife. Makes it extra special.
Interesting that Perry stated that he had seen several knives with that type guard.

Thanks for your kind comments Ron.

Regards, Sam
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2016, 11:08 AM
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Does anyone know the technique used to cut the scalloped grooves in these knives at the shop? Both past and present?

If anyone reading these posts have a Randall in the early to mid 60's timeframe, with the scalloped brass hardware, please post pics of them. It would be great to have a timeline of sorts, if possible.

Regards, Samg
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2016, 12:43 PM
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Found these posts from Scott Maynard over on KTF back in 2014, in Jacks thread "Vintage bowie and RMK coolie cap progression"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty_Water
Answer for Mike...we do have a machine shop mill these for us, to our specifications of course...and by the way, the lines are hand-cut in on a ceramic wheel...astounding eye/hand precision!

---DW---
That is the modern way. Not sure if it is the way it was done in the 50's and 60's. Could be, as the knife making is still done pretty much the same as the old days.

Regards, Samg
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  #19  
Old 01-27-2016, 01:09 PM
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Here was a post by Big Jim over at KTF back in 2008 in the thread

Re: Knife Of The Week Model 12, Part Deux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jim
12 Heavy.Mid 60's vintage.Have papers & letter from Randall,shipped to MP.at West Point.The Commander told the MP not to carry the Big Smith on duty as it was too intimidating.I Love It...
GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!

Jim P.



Does anyone know Jim? I am not a member over there, so I can't check, but he claimed to have papers from Randall with perhaps a ship date, which would be interesting. Would like to see the back of the sheath too. It's hard to tell, but it appears to have a type 2 stamp as well.

I don't know if Jim P is still active, but could someone who may be a member on that site check to see if Jim may still have that knife and answers to these questions? Ship date, and does back of sheath have model number stamps?

Thanks, Samg

Last edited by samg; 01-27-2016 at 01:22 PM.
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  #20  
Old 01-27-2016, 01:20 PM
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Sam no reason to re-invent the wheel. I've already covered the history and timeline of the "scallops," including flanged butt caps, "coolee" caps, and collars, in great detail including many pictorial histories.

You can find most of it on this site in the "Dating a Randall Bowie" line. The original line was on the other site, but I copy-pasted and posted most of the picture details in this line (fortunately) before being asked to leave, simply to ensure the historic details were maintained. The presentation is a little haphazard on this site compared to the original on the other site... but most of the pictorial pictures and historic Bowies are there.

Basically there were three, maybe four, distinct periods. The hilts, scallops, spacers, sheaths, and escutcheon plates are the clue to dating these knives and you cannot ignore any of these features. Anyway, it is all there, though I haven't posted some additional details I developed later.

The "escutcheon plate" line also posted on this site was an offshoot to the Bowie dating line.
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  #21  
Old 01-27-2016, 01:41 PM
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Jack,
In your Dating a Randall Bowie, your focus was on the coolie caps, flanged butt caps in general, rounded tang nuts, and inverted tang nuts. I don't think you covered the spacing of the scallop grooves on the hilt collars and flanged butt caps, so its a bit different. You did make a passing comment about the scalloping...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknola
Anyway, one thing that stood out immediately is that these fluted features are handmade, each quite different.

Not trying to reinvent the wheel, I think you did a great job in researching it all, but with the scallop spacing being different on the hilt collars and flanged butt caps, there may be a bit to it.
The early scalloping was spaced further apart, then over time, that spacing became tighter, till the '70's or so. Would like to find a knife from '64-'65 with provenance that has the tighter scalloping like the bowie Jim P posted in 2008.
The 12-8 that I just acquired is somewhere in between. Not 1950's spaced, not late 60's tight.

Thanks for your input Jack, its been an interesting thread.

Regards, Sam

Last edited by samg; 01-27-2016 at 02:02 PM.
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  #22  
Old 01-27-2016, 02:29 PM
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Sam, please allow me to correct you... I covered scallops and much of the commentary concerned that feature even if the title of the pictures concerned the nuts or coolee caps. Wide hand made tear drop shaped grooves were used in the 1950s until late 1950s-early 1960s. This was changed to narrower tear drops which lasted until about 1964 or so possibly/probably overlapped by special use of the older and wider groves.

The straight line cut groves, hand made irregular spaced, such as on your knife, followed after the tear drop shapes and is generally associated with the change to the pyramid shaped coolee cap structure. The rounded tang nut for coolee caps (but not usually seen on the flanged butt caps) was introduced about 1966.

In early 1970 the hand cut straight line grooves were continued but often more widely spaced. By late 1980s more machine-controlled grooving became apparent but I really didn't follow the trends that recently. Your knife with the straight line closely spaced irregular groves exhibits 1965 and post characteristics in my opinion. Before that the groves were generally tear drop shaped.

There are other tale-tell indicators of age, especially the spacers used on ivory handles... four different sizes and compositions were used at different times. Also the change in the escutcheon plates that took place about 1960-1 or so is of importance for dating the knives. The change in the hilts is also a marker.

Anyway, nothing is lost by continuing to look so I applaud your efforts.

In that line there are more historic Bowies presented than just about anywhere. These go back to the earliest days of the Bowie. I think I transferred a good deal of commentary that may or may not be worth reading.

A more complete explanation of the whole subject was in the line on the other board, now unobtainable unfortunately. Hunt published a lot of good pictures of Bowies in Randall Military Models, though the dating of those knives is off quite a bit in some cases.

Last edited by Jacknola; 01-27-2016 at 02:56 PM.
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  #23  
Old 01-27-2016, 02:57 PM
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Forgive my ignorance Jack, but you describe the grooves being tear drop shaped. Are you referring to the shape of the groove as it exits the channel?
Thanks, Sam G
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  #24  
Old 01-27-2016, 03:09 PM
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Comparing the early style grooves as on the Sun Valley Patrol, and mine, the difference is the width of the groove. On the SVP, there is no real space on the top, surface, between grooves. Is this what you are referring to? The Sun Valley Patrol groove being wider?




Last edited by samg; 01-27-2016 at 03:21 PM.
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  #25  
Old 01-27-2016, 03:34 PM
thevalueman thevalueman is offline
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now that you mention it, they are different...he probably just threw the two together for a photo, or got the photo from somewhere else, and never noticed.
:-)Rocky
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  #26  
Old 01-27-2016, 04:47 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Sam, do you still have the pictures on my Grady McCotter Ivory Smithsonian to use on this thread?
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  #27  
Old 01-27-2016, 05:38 PM
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Sure do. Here they are. Any idea the year of manufacture?




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  #28  
Old 01-27-2016, 06:51 PM
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It has been reported as 1965.
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  #29  
Old 01-27-2016, 07:23 PM
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Does the back of the sheath have model number stamp?
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  #30  
Old 01-27-2016, 08:13 PM
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Yes it does, Model and blade length.....Also a Grey Combination stone with white ink lettering. And the blade stamp is the early offset style. I have a bunch of other pictures that may help in this discussion, since this knife has been discussed extensively elsewhere thru the years.

Last edited by Ta2bill; 01-27-2016 at 08:18 PM.
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