But I need to know about 1095

[DaveL]

I just found a bunch of 1095 my old friend Bob Ogg sent to me. He used to use that exclusively. My question is the heat treat of the steel for blades and springs. Any help?

[Ray Rogers]

You can, and probably will, get a lot of different answers to that question. In short, 1095 is simple but it ain't easy.

Basically, the same heat to non-mag and quench process that works on simple carbon steels like 1084 will work on 1095. The part that isn't obvious is that the time elapsed from the moment you remove it from the heat to the moment the blade is in the quenchant is terribly, terribly short and absolutely critical to getting the desired results. It must be fast!

You can quench in water or oil. If you choose water then figure on losing at least 1/3 of the number of blades that you make due to cracking. Oil is better, and a professional quenching oil like Tough Quench is better still. With 1095, temper as soon as possible after the quench.

Now, standby for the alternate methods and differing opinions that are fairly sure to follow .....

[Alan L]

Dave, you related to my cousin Ernie Ogg?

No matter, if you can get to Knoxville this weekend GET YOUR BUTT THERE!

Bowie's hammer-in is happening, and more mastersmiths, journeyman smiths, and those of us who don't join things regardless will be there to answer any question you may have.

See posts below in this forum and in the outpost for details, and get your rear end there!

[David Broadwell]

Ray,

So what's your definition of "fast"? If you were to use a heat treat oven and pull the blade out and go straight into warm oil would you suppose that's fast enough? It usually takes no more than 2 seconds once I've clamped on the blade with pliers to get it out of the oven and down into the oil.

I'm assuming that the temperature for the oven would be around 1500 F, correct? I'd go right inside and into an oven at 400 F to temper rather than wait for the HT oven to come down.

I use a light vegetable oil as a qhenchant. Most of my carbon damascus is either O-1 or 1084, and it works well for them. I'd consider olive oil, but have you been to the grocery store lately?

The reason I ask is that I'm contemplating making some blades from either W2 or W1/1095 and giving them a hamon. I'd have to have W2 rolled into flat stock, but I can get 1095 in flat bar.

David

[Ray Rogers]

David,

Sounds like your set up is similar to mine:electric oven, warm oil (I use Tough Quench) and that works well enough for me. 'Fast' means getting the hot steel (1475 F) into the oil quick enough to be ahead of the TTT curve. For 1095, that seems to be in the neighborhood of 1 second flat according to what I've gathered on these forums. That's pretty much impossible with our set up but judging from the results I get at about 2 seconds or less we can get close enough. You can only do what you can do, just don't waste time with 1095.

Vegetable oil or hydraulic fluid work well as a quenchant for 1095, probably a lot of other oils too. If you can get some Tough Quench I think you'd be really pleased with it - the hamon you get is very similar to a water hamon but it never cracks a blade. Best results are achieved with the Tough Quench at 150 F but it works almost as well at room temp.

As for a hamon I could never do it near that fast by trying to submerge half the blade so I clay coat the blade and dunk the whole thing. I get a good hamon that way and can still maintain my maximum speed ....

[ranger1]

I use alot of 1095. I take to 1500 hold for 5min. Straight into parks#50 (oil at 80deg). Then go straight to temper oven as soon as blade is cool to room temp. I start my oven when I put the blade in I think this brings the oven and the blade up to temp at the same time 400F. Hold for 1hr. Let cool to room temp and temper again at 400 for 1hr. Seems to work well

[AcridSaint]

Remember, the higher the heat, the shorter the TTT curve becomes with 1095. With an oven it's workable, but in my opinion a torch or forge will not produce the best heat treating results available to 1095. Not to say that it won't work to make a knife...

I use brine for all of my 10xx series steels, unless you pay for professional heat treating oil or polymer quench you stand a very good chance of not getting an optimal heat treat, especially with the lower maganese content and short window of 1095. I grind after heat treating now even with carbon steel blades. This reduces the chance of cracking (I've never cracked an unground blade in brine), but you still have to normalize or the blanks tend to warp.

[ranger1]

But Cap, Without the occasional cracked blade you don't get the drama.

[DaveL]

Appreciate all of this. Actually, Bob Ogg was a very well known maker, mostly folders who has passed but he made most of them out of 1095. I never knew how he heat treated but looking at his shop, it very well may have been a torch. I always assumed you would use foil on the knife if it was above 1200 degrees, but this may not be right judging the time needed to quench. It usually takes me a little time to get it out of the foil. More help here!

[ranger1]

I never use foil. Usually a light coat of satinite(a very thin wash to help reduce scaleing. Guess you could use foil. You'd have to be fast.

[AcridSaint]

Andy - you driving out this way for the meeting?

Dave - In my experience, you'll only want to use foil on air hardening steels, there isn't enough time to take the foil off on steels that require an oil or water quench (note that not all steels that can be oil hardened require oil hardening) and it could create uneven cooling if left on. Additionally, with oil and water quenching and the lower austentizing temperature, air exposure isn't really a concern with simple steels.

[ranger1]

I do plan on it. Gotta see how you flatlanders live.

[DiamondG Knives]

Dave
Do you have a way to contact Max Burnett? He was Bob's StepSon and apprentice. He could probably tel you all the particulars on that batch of steel, as he is stil probably using it! Last I heard from him he was still living outside of Paris Arkansas near Mt. Magazine. Sorry but I dont have a good working number for him.

Hope this might help.

God Bless
Mike

[DaveL]

I do know Max and talked often after Bob's death. I will give him a call on the 1095.

[David Broadwell]

Originally Posted by Ray Rogers

David,

For 1095, that seems to be in the neighborhood of 1 second flat according to what I've gathered on these forums. That's pretty much impossible with our set up You can only do what you can do, just don't waste time with 1095.

Vegetable oil or hydraulic fluid work well as a quenchant for 1095, probably a lot of other oils too. If you can get some Tough Quench I think you'd be really pleased with it

As for a hamon I could never do it near that fast by trying to submerge half the blade so I clay coat the blade and dunk the whole thing. I get a good hamon that way and can still maintain my maximum speed ....

Sounds like the timing is impossible to get no matter what set up you're using!

Above are you suggesting that I not use 1095? I believe I can get some W2 rolled to flat stock that I can use. That is most likely what I will use.

I've tried the torch along the edge technique a couple of times, but the longest blade was around 6". I can't imagine trying to find non-magnetic on a 10" blade and keeping the same temp all along that edge in 1095! Don't know off hand where to get satanite, but I can get wood stove cement easily enough.

Thanks for the info,

David