Taps, stepdrills, pivots, etc.

[Osprey Guy]

Now that I'm finally making the jump into sole authorship, I have new requirements for sourcing various materials and equipment. Aside from some required supplies for my new mini-mill, I was also looking for 0-80 socket head screws, 0-80 taps, and looking to see if by any chance there was such a thing as a pre-made stepdrill for socket head 0-80's (I got so spoiled with the 1-72 stepdrill I bought awhile back from knifekits.com). Laid out in front of me last night was a big pile of all the usual catalogs...including MSC's "Big Book" (amazing resource...call 'em and they'll send you this huge book free of charge!), the 2004 Enco catalog and most current "Hot Deals" flyer (probably my single favorite resource for tool-type supplies), Grizzly's great catalog, my new "LittleMachineShop.com" flyer/catalog, and of course all the various knife supply house catalogs (Texas knife Suply, Koval, Jantz, K&G, etc, etc). I always get a kick going through all of these...especially if I have some extra $$$ earmarked for knife supplies.

I hadn't been over to knifekits.com for quite some time, so just out of curiosity I thought I'd check what they currently had for sale at the site. The last few times I visited there, it was obvious that they were moving more and more towards becoming a one-stop knife supply.

Sure enough they had the 0-80 screws for which I was looking...and under the same heading they also have a "precision" 0-80 tap, and yes...they even have the stepdrill for the 0-80 sockethead screw!!!

...and also, they have a rather interesting array of springs (for autos), thumbstuds, and a number of different style pivots...Neat stuff!

Thought this might prove useful info for some of you foldermakers...Check it out.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Ray Rogers]

I wish everyone would follow your example and order that set of catalogs. It's hard to imagine what a great resource they are until you have them in front of you - and they're free!

The step drills are nice but I still prefer individual drills for most things. That way, I have more options in the types of screws I can use (different heads) and I can replace one part when it gets dull instead of both. Since I drill mostly titanium these are valid concerns for me but might not be as important to someone working other materials.

What kind of mini-mill did you get?

[J.R. Fraps]

Dennis,
Sounds like the "bug" has bitten you pretty seriously! Remember that if you are on a first name basis with your UPS, FedEx, and USPS representative, you might be ordering a bit too often

For taps, the low cost imported ones that Enco or MSC has are just fine...these little fellows are pretty fragile so order them at least a dozen at a time. You might consider a Tap-X or Procunier auto tapper on a dedicated small drill press...really extends the life of the taps but will set you back $350 or so up front. Also keep and use tap-ease or some good stick lube for your taps.

I really like the step drills that Koval has but they aren't cheap...$14.95 each.

As to fasteners, Les and Marianne Halpern at www.halperntitanium.com have good supplies. If you buy by the 1000 at a time , most are $70.00 per 1000. Unfortunately, the only 0-80 socket heads Les could get lately are "Torx certified" and run $100.00 per 1000,
but worth the quantity purchase price. The Halperns are good folks to do business withand their quality of service is as good as the quality of their products.

Another fine source for titanium, and other supplies who gives excellent service is the Chuck, Brenda, and Jessica Bybee family at Alpha Knife Supply. They are also the sole source for Timascus.

I tend to chatter on, my apology.

I hav seen a number of the pictures of the kit knives you have tricked out. making from scratch will be that much more satisfying and fun.

Best to You!

[Osprey Guy]

It's not that I mind using separate drills, I certainly spent a lot of time teaching myself how to drill acurate, square holes. But when the occasion calls for a certain type countersunk hole...and it just so happens it's one of the few types of screw holes where there's a step drill out there, which is already perfectly matched up for the otherwise two-step procedure, why not combine the steps...it's quicker, easier, and you know you'll get a dead-on accurate hole in the process!

As to which mill I wound up getting...I spent months waffling back and forth on this decision...There were many factors that entered into it.

With entire websites devoted to the "mini-mill" (refering to the very popular model owned by so many...especially the "hobby" knifemakers working out of their home shops), it began to seem a no-brainer for a novice like me to buy the little mill/drill and get all that free support/advice.

As of last week, I hadn't quite yet arrived at a final decision, when I was basically confronted with an opportunity that forced me to "either sh*t or get off the pot!"

I've got a friend who works at HF (or at least he used to work there...He just quit to go work for another well-known retailer...Lucky for me, it's another of my favorite "hangouts"). When HF opened nearby, back in April, my friend told me that if there was anything I needed from HF, he'd be able to "take care of me." I told him I was interested in the mini-mill and would let him know my decison. Well, he recently called me and said "if you're going to buy that mill, now's the time (apparently he knew he'd be leaving soon). So, a little sooner than I intended, I rushed right over to buy a new mill. He did indeed arrange for a fantastic deal on my mini-mill! Believe me...it was a huge savings! But it was not the 'no-brainer" purchase I was expecting... I was unexpectedly faced with what was at the time, a bit of a difficult decision.

The day I came by to pick up my mini-mill, my friend was in the back of the store, where they had just finished setting up a 2HP, 700# mill/drill. It usually sells for close to $1000...My friend said he could arrange for me to buy it for about $650!!! I was soooo tempted, but faced with two considerable problems:

Problem One, I'm a complete novice when it comes to mill/drills, and after an hour or so of angst, I wound up deciding that I'd be better off ramping up on my mill knowledge and then, in maybe a year or two, I can always buy the bigger, heavier, and considerably more expensive piece of equipment. The other not-so-small problem, would be having to transport that monster down into my basement shop...Just the thought of that gave me the "heebeejeebees"!!!!!

So, I've got the small one...I'm only just beginning to learn how to use it. I have little doubt it will eventually become indispensible to my knifemaking.

Now if I could only just figure out how to use the darn thing!...


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Osprey Guy]

Oooops...

Looks like I was typing my reply to Ray, while John was posting his response.

Thanks for all that info John.

I already buy from Halpern. Matter of fact, just last weekend I was visiting my good friend Ron Nott and gifted him a sizeable sheet of titanium...One of three sheets of Ti I got on sale last year from Halpern...Each sheet is about 20" x 8" x .050" and I only paid $6 bucks apiece!!! (At the time, it was such a good deal, I figured that one of these days I'd be making my own and would have a use for the Ti...Glad I did!).

I've bought screws as well...Tell you the truth I found their stainless 1-72's to be a little too soft. I like the ones I got from Knifekits.com. We'll see how they do with the 1-80's. Fastener Express was just recommended to me by another close friend, Kelly Carlson.

So many suppliers...just need more time, and money!


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[AUBE]

another supplier i like for taps (and mini-dies) is Reactive Metals Studio. last time i ordered the taps were selling for under $2 and they are much much less fragile than a normal tap...they do dull faster but on average i would get 200+ holes per tap before the threads started showing wear (3/16" blind hole, hand tapped...no autotap) so for those of you like me that tend to break taps, u might want to check them out. i think they carry from 00-90 to like 4-40ish. good service too

-Jason Aube

[Ray Rogers]

Dennis said he has some titanium sheets so I assume that he intends to use it making knives and will be tapping holes in it. People who break a lot of taps in titanium generally do so because they are using the recommended pilot hole size for whatever screw size they are using. For instance, the standard pilot for a 0-80 is 3/64ths (.047) but foor titanium most people will use something around a #54 (.055) which is about .008 oversized. If you use a power driven tapping device the only way to avoid breakage is over sized holes. BTW, I have used every type of expensive and exotic mini-tap I could get my hands on in an effort to find one that wouldn't break and that would last long, all to no avail. The best deal is plain ol' HSS taps bought a dozen at a time. Tapping fluid is a must and I use a fresh taps every time I start a new folder. It's not that expensive to do it that way and it avoids a ton of problems.

Dennis also says he is a complete novice with a mill. That's OK. Mills can be incredibly complex devices to use if you are trying to use one for every purpose and process to which a mill is suited. As knifemakers though, we don't generally do that. For us, most mills are used for bulk metal removal and for running a slotting saw. Neither of those is particularly complicated.

I experimented at first trying to use the official speed/feed tables for cutting metal. What type of cutter for what type of metal and at what speed. Eventually, I settled on about 800 rpms and carbide cutters for titanium with a mist coolant. My mill stays at 800 rpms now whether I mill steel, aluminum or titanium and it stays theres for running the slotting saw. Been that way for years, never had a problem, and I get sufficient life from my cutters. It's not the way a professional machinist would do it but it's simple, effective, and it allows me to get on with making knives.

The other thing that gave me fits at first was how to clamp parts down to be milled. Two things helped me solve that problem. One was to cut my stock material over sized by a large enough margin to allow room for clamps to hold the part. This allows full milling on the part without having to re-position the clamps. The simplicity is well worth the cost of a little wasted material.

The second thing was a milling plate. A milling plate is nothing more than a large plate of aluminum (or steel) that can be bolted to the mill table. The plate has rows of small tapped holes drilled in it - mine are tapped for 10-32 screws. Then you make some simple small clamps from aluminum . The small clamps and the myriad of holes in the plate give you a very large set of options for positioning a part on the mill, very fast, very easy. And, if the cutter should happen to bump a clamp (as it surely will) it easily cuts the aluminum and no big problem is created. You can see two different types of clamps I use on this page from my liner lock tutorial: www.rayrogers.com/ftutor3.htm

On that same page you can see an aluminum jig that I use with the clamps for holding parts in the drill press. This is just a tiny milling plate. This same plate and clamp set can be used to hold a liner for slotting by clamping it vertically into a milling vise, like this:


Neither life nor milling machines have to be complicated....

[Darren Ellis]

Originally Posted by Ray Rogers

Dennis said he has some titanium sheets so I assume that he intends to use it making knives and will be tapping holes in it. People who break a lot of taps in titanium generally do so because they are using the recommended pilot hole size for whatever screw size they are using. For instance, the standard pilot for a 0-80 is 3/64ths (.047) but foor titanium most people will use something around a #54 (.055) which is about .008 oversized. If you use a power driven tapping device the only way to avoid breakage is over sized holes. BTW, I have used every type of expensive and exotic mini-tap I could get my hands on in an effort to find one that wouldn't break and that would last long, all to no avail. The best deal is plain ol' HSS taps bought a dozen at a time. Tapping fluid is a must and I use a fresh taps every time I start a new folder. It's not that expensive to do it that way and it avoids a ton of problems.

Ray, that's great information to know about tapping in Titanium! As I'm geting ready to venture into folders soon myself, this is good information to know for sure!

-Darren

[tmickley]

Ray, what thickness, tooth count are you using for your slotting saw. I ordered one and it came entirely too big and now I need to go back and get a more appropriate sized one. I don't want to be using Dremmel cutting wheels.

[Osprey Guy]

I never doubted for a second that as soon as I posted, we'd all be the recipients of all sorts of helpful info...

Thanks for taking all that time Ray...Always appreciated. It so happens I did a search a couple of days ago using these two in combo: "tap" and "0-80"... Got all sorts of useful threads on the subject. Several of those threads mention drilling slightly oversize for Ti...I've since passed that choice tidbit along to a couple of friends.

I received a video from littlemachineshop.com a few days ago. It deals specifically with clamping and fixtures for the minimill...Very nicely done...Easy to follow. Having said that, I do like those clamping plates of yours Ray.

I didn't know that Reactive Metals sold taps...Considering their experise with Ti, I'm curious to see what sort of taps they're selling (I was about to place an order with them anyway).

In the course of doing a "Google" on taps, I found a really interesting site...Regalcuttingtools.com They selll many different kinds of taps and offer all sorts of detailed info on them...Which tap is best for which metal/situation. Also, some rather intriguing types of taps.

Dennis Greenbaum
Yeah Baby!

[Ray Rogers]

I get my slotting saws from MSC. They are Controx brand saws made from cobalt (not the carbide saws!) HSS. They are .020 thick, 1.25" in diameter, have a 1/2" arbor hole, and 80 teeth. I normally get very good wear out of these $10 saws and use them for at least 4 or 5 folders before replacing them. A good high quality arbor is essential (about $20) as any wobble can cause these saws to shatter. As stated earlier, I use a coolant mist and run the same old 800 rpms as for all my other milling tasks. Coolant is important because the titanium will get hot enough to harden and if that happens it will remove all the teeth from the saw. I once used up 4 saw blades trying to get through a hardened area like that - probably should have made a new liner. BTW, I have used these same saws in .014 thickness with good results but prefer the durability of the .020

Dennis,

One of the big advantages of the clamping system I use is that it is cheap and simple to make, almost anybody can do it. Using that jig plate allows me to occasionally clamp the plate to my small mill to do a milling operation (easier to clamp the 1/2" plate than the knife part) and then transport the whole assembly to the drill press for drilling. Since I know the jig plate is flat and true, anything clamped on it will automatically be perpendicular to the tool when placed on the mill table or into my cross sliding vise (which has been modified to receive it). This saves oodles of set up time for me.....

[CDS]

Dennis,
Congratulations on your new mill. I had one for about a year and it never went unused! In fact it was my drill press also. It will drill precision holes that are easy to align because of the table. I noticed a few people have mentioned tapping. Invest in a Tapmatic tapper head. I have a small Delta drill press that is used only for its purpose. You will NEVER break a tap. Just to give you an idea. I have been using the same tiny 1-72 high speed steel, tap for about 80 taps in titanium and some steel and it is still cutting good. Good luck with that mill and wear those safety glasses.

[Osprey Guy]

Good luck with that mill and wear those safety glasses.

THANKS!

FYI-

I'm "MR. SAFETY" when it comes to my shop.

I ALWAYS wear safety glasses whenever I'm doing any activity with any tool (especially power tools), which might have the potential to send something flying... And all visitors are required to wear glasses while any such activity is in progress.
I also ALWAYS wear a respirator whenever I'm doing anything that could potentially create dust, or release fumes.

And....
with all the funky, possibly irritating, potentially hazardous materials we use (exotic woods, giraffe bone, mammoth tusk, various shell materials, exotic steels, oils, solvents, acids, salts, etc), I keep two air filters running at all times at both ends of my shop. If for no other reason, I sure wouldn't want any of that to migrate to any other part of my house. I've got my family to think about...




Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[CDS]

Dennis,
Wow! No discredit was intended on your safety knowledge by my last sentence! Just a figure of speech. I will be more CAREFUL on my choice of words in the future....
Chris S.

[Osprey Guy]

Chris-

By all means, keep using that "figure of speech"...

My response was my way of confirming that I do indeed take your suggestion seriously. I've been in shops where very little in the way of safety is practiced,...not even the basics such as safety glasses and respirators... and it blows me away! In fact, I'd go so far to say that of the shops I've visited so far in the past two years, only two really maintained anything resembling safety standards.

There was a recent article in one of the magazines, can't remember whether it was Blade or Knives Illustrated. The article was all about shop safety... It went on for several pages, and while they did of course talk about safety glasses, not once did they mention anything about a respirator! For a knifemaker, I think that's just unthinkable!

Keep spreading the good word...


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!