Getting pieces cut out someplace else

[Darrel Ralph]

Sounds like the right way to go!

[Frank Niro]

Now there you go Darrel ! If it wasn't for you there wouldn't be all those fine folder kits for people to enjoy making, selling. and giving away. And that price!! I can't buy the Damascus for the blade for the price those are sold at. I sure wish they were around several years ago. It's amazing what can be learned from quality stuff like that!!! Frank

[Kevin Wilkins]

I envy those who have the luxery of saying money isn't important in knifemaking. That's the difference between a hobby and a business or profession. How many people are mail carriers, or cashiers at Walmart just because they "love the work?" Most people don't take up being a cashier at Walmart as a hobby. But people do take up knifemaking as a hobby and use income from other sources (such as their reguar job) to pay for it all. There's a big difference!

I know. i started out years ago with knifemaking as a hobby / art project and have seen it grow into a business. ANY business must be run on a professional basis and must result in a profit. Otherwise you go broke.

Now that said, I am currently looking at advanced CNC controlled machinery for my shop. Machine tools that cost nice juicy 5 figure amounts. I can't wait to get one of these babies up and running and see what new possibliities that will open for designs and products I can't even think of now. I remember what new worlds were opened up for me through my hobby milling machine and my World war II vintage surface grinder.

The key is, as has been stated here by other posters, is HONESTY AND CLARITY with one's customers! The more I have learned about machine tool operations, the more I can instantly tell what knives were made with what type of technology. A LOT of knives on the market are made usung advanced machines and many more makers than one might think use CNC machinery either directly or indirectly. Some makers talk about and others don't. The economics speak for themselves. Most of these makers are professional knifemakers who derive their livlyhood from making knives. There is a ton of planning that goes into having even simple parts made. Most hobby makers have neither the time nor the experience to get something made that's more complicated than some simple water jet rough blanking. For one knife, it's easier to cut the #### thing by hand.

What's important then is that the Makers also speak for and about their products. As long as the customer is honestly informed of what he or she is buying, then I think the free market rules. When people start telling lies or engaging in deception, than I think that's crap and damages the entire knife industry.

[Darrel Ralph]

Kevin,
Honesty is the best policy. There are many tales that float in the knife industry. Most of them are BS. It is easier to just tell the truth.

A knife maker can make a knife any way they want imho. The customer is the deciding factor in what is bought not the maker next to you at a show.

Thanks for the kind words on the kits. We try hard to make them well and give good value for the money.

My son is now making customs with me here in my shop. He is a good maker . He will be a good addition to the community.

[Kevin Wilkins]

Darrel you are so right: honesty is the best policy. You are one of the Makers who come to mind when I say people who use advanced machine technology in their shops and talk directly and honestly about it with their customers. Kit Carson and Neil Blackwood are two others. Tell the customers the truth and let them decide what they want and what they want to pay for. That's what you guys do and that's my policy as well.

Personally I don't want to confine myself to files and sandpaper. But hey, if a guy wants to do that, fine by me.

Another point: if we look at the standards set today by the (mostly) American production knife companies, we see some VERY high quality and design standards. If custom (whatever that means) makers want to continue to get and hold customers, then the custom makers are also going to have to raise their qualty standards too in order to meet Benchmade and Microtech. The days of delivering shoddy liner locking folders and getting people to pay big dough for them are limited I think. Custom makers will see ever rising quality in production knives and for the buyer of a User Knife, the reasons for buying a custom get narrower. CNC controled machines in the maker's shop allow the production of extreme high quality product in an amount of time that still alows a profit without rasing the price of the knife above the moon. The market for $3000+ knives is limited.

And a word to those who think if a maker has a CNC machine he needs only type in "Cool Knife" and watch the knives shoot out ready to sell: foget about it!!! CNC machines require a compleate knowledge of how to make the product with conventional machines AS WELL as the ability to handle computers and software AS WELL as te ability to get the computer to get the #### machine to do what you want. Folks, this is some real hard stuff to figure out when the rent is due. CNC machines are a major factor MORE difficult to use than conventional machines... of course, once you have mastered the thing....

[Darrel Ralph]

Kevin,
Thanks for the good words.
CNC is not what people think it is .
The parts are still roughed and have to be completely finished to make the knife right.
I hand rub every blade every knife that comes out of my shop. The frames all have to be hand sanded with extreme care, then hand rubbed to make them as high quality as possible.
There is no substitute for hand work.

[Sam Wereb]

I've been reading this and hearing echoes in my own work.

I have "machines" that great writers in the past didn't have. Even though nothing I make qualifies as art, things like word processing and pdf don't give me an unfair advantage. I still type from the home row like everyone else.

I still spend hours observing what I can and trying to figure things out. I collect and reject materials, try to develop understanding and skill with them and try to master different styles.

My fancy tools just help me meet minimum standards and make basic reproduction easier, similar to CNC machining. I have to come up with every idea on my own, figure out how to present it and finish it myself.

I know that this is what CNC equipment owners do too. I've seen a lot of it used. These people are using their minds and hands every bit as much as the next top maker, and no less.

Knifemaking is thinking. You go through hundreds of decisions, steps and tasks so that when you're done the physical renders what you saw in your mind. You use the tools and skills necessary to make it look most like your thoughts, not less.

And the customer makes the final decision on everything. I had a guy refuse to pay my full rate for a piece of work for him. "It's only one freakin' page and it only took you an hour!" he told me. He wasn't interested in the five hours of preparation and the years of skill I honed to deliver his project in an hour.

It's all determined by quality, value and utility. I don't know. I ain't got it all figured out either. But I'm down.

[Frank Niro]

Well, I don't have to be earning a living from it to own expensive equipment, and why do I have to excuse myself for using it? If you are doing quality work, then it is quality work no matter how you get there. How many buyers actually care how it was made if the work is that good, and why should they? You are still the one doing it, only you are going through the machine. The fact that you have the machines and can do it faster doesn't mean it will be made better or more in demand than when you made it without having those pieces of equipment. I have five inexpensive drill press in my shop. Do you believe a knife collector wants to know that? A few years back one was concidered to be lots and if you talked to my wife, well why did I ever need that one if a hand tool of some sort would work? I aquired more because it helped me to do what I wanted to do in what I thought was an easier and better way. I didn't get them because I thought it would help me up my production or earn me more money. What I am saying is we do not have to explain or excuse how or with what, we do, to achieve quality results. For most of us the desire to do better is always there. Some may better afford to try doing it with more involved equipment and with it move to a higher level of quality as a result. For some of us, the new equipment will may lead us to a new learning to operate level, the results in our work may in fact be faster but without the quality improvement we hoped for. Frank

[Darrel Ralph]

Frank,
Progress is a change in the force around us. There will be folks that will feel un comfortable with the change and add negative comments and thoughts about those who move forward.

I personally like both worlds.
Hand work and high tech work.
I have been asked 5 times in the last 10 years "by collectors" how I make my knives if that means anything. The most chatter I have heard is from other makers that what to stay in their comfort zone. I want to say this does not mean ALL makers. Just some point the finger and comment.

This should say something to everyone.
Some of us as humans have the never ending quest to do better and constantly improve.
Time waits for no person. We are really "dust in the wind".

[fischerknives]

Most of my customers appreciate the fact that my knives are made solely by me in my shop, including the damascus steel. Some of them are interested in the technology or lack thereof but some don't care at all. I'm not a machinist - the most sophisticated machine being used in my shop is a surface grinder - but in my mind, a skilled machinist is an artist too.

I did recently acquire a nice milling machine (vintage Gorton 8-1/2D) which will be up and running soon. I won't be milling blades and such on it, but it's going to be real handy for cutting locks in liner lock folders, slotting guards, machining autos and lots of support work for things I need in my shop, like power hammer and press dies. Is this going to make me less of an artist than I was?

My roots are in blacksmithing, from the age of 14. When I first started making knives, I liked to refer to myself as a traditionalist. I am somewhat less of a traditionalist these days but perhaps a better artist, thanks in part to tools like the surface grinder, power hammer, press and soon the milling machine. There's a term sometimes used in the knife world: Purist. Somebody who performs every aspect of making their knives, themselves. I do consider myself a purist and I'm kind of proud of that

Tradition is great and I respect those who cling to it; I still own a coal forge that's probably 150 years old. But who in history was more innovative than the blacksmith, especially when it came to tools which made his job easier or enabled him to produce a better product? For those who are locked up in traditions and look sideways at technicians, ask yourself this: If you could bring a blacksmith forward in time from the 18th century to present day, how long do you think it would be before he was running a milling machine? A week, maybe? How much longer until he would get his arms around CNC?

Just a thought...

[Don Robinson]

[QUOTE=hammerdownnow] A well thought out and executed classic pattern is much more beautiful. Example, those little screw in button guards on the Reeves knife may appear to be an inovation, but I have a pic of a Sheffield Bowie with the same type of guard.[/QUOTE

And I believe you've seen one of my recent barlows made of completely up to date materials and turned into a linerlock. :cool:

That's the sort of thing I enjoy. Taking something already good, changing it, and making it myself. I like unique knives of all types.

That's why I choose not to use patterns, fixtures, etc. or do mass production. I do, however, use all my skills and use machines (and computers) that let me do it the fastest and easiest way for me. I let the machines do the work when I can.

[hammerdownnow]

Oh yeah Don, I remember your Barlow. I had it up as my wallpaper for awhile. Did you happen to see the pic I posted on the folding knife forum of the old Sheffield Barlow? It is believed to be the origin of the pattern. A nostalgic pattern, it is sturdy and can stand a lot of abuse. That makes it a good choice for a boys first knife. I think it would make for a popular kit knife. Dads making their sons a knife just like their first knife. My son (6yrs.) bought me a "Daddy Barlow" at the flea market cuz daddy likes knives and it said Daddy on it. It is by far my greatest treasure.
link to barlow thread (click here)

[Don Robinson]

Man, that really is an old one. If I remember correctly, they sold a pattern like that as a boy scout knife?

I'd forgotten that pattern, using a drop point blade. The barlows I like have the single clip blade and small handle, like the ones I've made. Beautiful shape, to me. Just right foe cleaning under finger nails, sharpening a pencil, or light whittling.

Beg your pardon, but that one in your picture is just plain ugly.

[hammerdownnow]

Remember the game telephone? Where you would whisper a word or phrase in someones ear and they would pass it around the room and it would totally change by the time it got to the last person in line. I was wondering if the same thing would happen if you told a maker a pattern and had him grind it 100 times taking each blade away as it was done.

Doesn't scribing a pattern in steel count as "cheating: as much as having a blade EDM'ed? If you have a model of a knife, don't you owe it to your customers to be as true to that model as possible?

I had some throwing knife blanks EDM'ed. Man does it knock off some time just to pick one out and start hammering it, (the part I like) rather than cutting,scribing and profiling it first. each one is much closer to the last that way also. It is hard enough for me to hammer two the same as it is.