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  #31  
Old 01-26-2004, 10:17 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Quote:
But I'll be better convinced by works that show at least an attempt at creativity, if not originality.
Mike - Guess this will be a point I'll continue to disagree with at least as far as newbies - as I earlier said I learned by copying and copying again - in fact many of my early teachers required that of me - until I had my chops down creativity and originality were frowned upon (my hands can still feel the crack of that old German harnessmakers steel rule
I did find my own muse and went on with it, but those early days of training are what in many ways made me the craftsman I am today and it is one of the techniques I use for teaching. Can't walk until you crawl.

If in fact Hawk or anyone else is being a scam artist then I'll supply the rope....but until I have more proof other than a few internet images to go by then he and anyone else will get the benefit of my doubt - especially if it is based on nothing more than ignorance. Quickest way you can spoil a student is by chewing them a new backside when they don't know why.


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  #32  
Old 01-26-2004, 10:52 PM
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Keith Montgomery Keith Montgomery is offline
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I hope you are right Chuck. Maybe I am being too hard on Hawk, but I think my skepticism is going to stick around for awhile as well.


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  #33  
Old 01-26-2004, 11:14 PM
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Keith nothing wrong with being skeptical - but I just don't have enough evidence to say yea or nay so until I do I'll sit the fence.


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  #34  
Old 01-26-2004, 11:19 PM
MSP MSP is offline
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The pics aren't that definitive to me. And I've always thought that the copy issue brought up by MtMike was a total crock. So I guess that I'd say that I'm on Hawk's side for the time being.
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  #35  
Old 01-27-2004, 12:02 AM
Stormcrow Stormcrow is offline
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Hawk,

I think perhaps we have misjudged what is going on. Your very first statement in this thread admits that you have a grinder, but not a very good one (takes care of that).

I'll admit up front that I mis-read some of your statements at first. I read through and came out with the impression that you had put a handle on a kit knife (this tanto and the bowie). Other people read and got the impression that you were saying you made it, but they recognized the pattern and so thought that you were claiming to have made a knife that was actually a kit knife.

But you say quite plainly (y'all go back and read carefully if you don't believe me) that you bought a kit knife to use as a pattern, and that the blades we see are your representations of these blade patterns that you bought.

Guys, people who sew buy pre-made patterns all the time. That's all he did.

But you managed to get such a close copy, with such less-than-ideal tools, that some people suspected you of actually using the kit blades and passing them off for your own. I have seen unscrupulous people who have done this before, and find it dishonest and irritating. So I understand why some of the people here got so upset.

But if you have done as you say (and I think very much that you have), then you have displayed some very impressive skills. Your renditions of the blade patterns are close enough to fool professional makers into thinking they are the actual kits themselves. Your skill in the execution of the handles no one can deny, and obviously did not come from any kit. I was thoroughly impressed by that.

Here's an analogy that I came up with: If a person bought a paint-by-numbers kit and painted the picture, executing it with some skill and creativity, but admittted it was a paint-by-numbers kit, they are learning the craft of painting and staying honest. A person that buys a paint-by-numbers kit, copies the picture, paints it, and tells people that it is a copy of a paint-by-numbers kit, then he is also learning the craft and staying honest. A person who buys a paint-by-numbers kit, paints it, then represents it as an original work may be skilled, but is being dishonest.

You have done the second analogy, but people mis-read what you wrote and think you are doing the third. This is a legitimate way of learning the craft.

I apologize for any bad thoughts I may have had about you, but you were close enough to the pattern to fool me too. Good job. I hope this doesn't sour you on CKD. This is the first time I've seen someone so jumped on this board, and I thought it was legitimate at first too. Please stick around and show us more of your work.

Most sincerely,
Stormcrow


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Last edited by Stormcrow; 01-27-2004 at 01:17 AM.
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  #36  
Old 01-27-2004, 12:17 AM
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Hawk don't feel ashamed, man. Here i am, the son of a knifemaker and like i said in another post, i'd rather melt down a comb to a sharp point and post a pic of it than some of my crappy blades.


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  #37  
Old 01-27-2004, 12:29 AM
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Osprey Guy Osprey Guy is offline
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Well said Stormcrow!

From the get-go I was on Hawk's side for two simple reasons...

First...I took the time to carefully read what he wrote.

Second...John (Hawk) has been around the CKDF for about three months now. He's been steadily asking good questions and clearly becomes engaged and enthusiastic over the responses. He has struck me throughout as someone who is genuinely interested in learning the craft.

It just wouldn't make sense after all that due diligence, for John to suddenly decide to post a couple of "ringers"...

I know you guys take knifemaking very seriously, and have genuine cause for concern from a small group of unscrupulous "makers"...The CKDF has become known as the Knife Forums that alway takes the high road. I think we'd all be well served in keeping with simple principles... "innocent until proven guilty"...and, "Do unto others..."

In the future, let's not be so quick on the trigger.

I hope John is not put off by this...whatever your opinion, he clearly has talent and it should be nurtured.


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  #38  
Old 01-27-2004, 07:37 AM
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MtMike MtMike is offline
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Dennis - I think most of us also took the time to read Hawk's posts carefully -- longtime CKD members are nothing if not encouraging of new makers (I stand as an example ) As I said, I'll remain skeptical, but not blind nor unwilling to praise if shown my skepticism was unfounded.

Chuck -- had to giggle when I read your "walk before crawl" line: my sometimes feeble forgetter dragged up a comment you made some time ago about carving or stamping, encouraging an attempt to "go for it" rather than getting stuck in the basics

I really do love this place -- plenty of room to disagree, civility enough to withold arrows, and time to sit back and wait
for "Chapter2"

C'mon Hawk, we're eagerly awaiting Chapter 2

Mike


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  #39  
Old 01-27-2004, 02:54 PM
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How does one copy a "STYLE" exactly? A tanto is a style, a shape if you will, how does one infringe and how does one infringe one? Holler at his for making one after a TKS STYLE, hell call TKS up and holler at them and defend Japanese blade smiths over the last 5000 years.
This whole thing is BS and i hope this new maker doesnt get discouraged over this shark mentality coming from some. Here we have a fella trying his eyes out and being put down by some i know i personally never even seen a accual knife from.
I have had some fairly well known ppl from CKD ask why i dont post anything i have made, this is one reason. Who am i or anyone to judge someone elses eye for design.
We as makers dont set the standard, the customer does.

As for design am i now wrong becuase i have made scagel, tanto, bowie or what have you "STYLE" knives. If i am then i grant you every maker on this forum has commited infringment fraud!
INFACT at times i have EXACTLY copied how Fogg creates a hamon, Caffery`s idea how foring and HTing user knives, ect and so on.
#### odd i thought thats why we shared things around here and #### disappointing to. Now that i said my peace and defended STYLE im going to get off this machine and out in the shop where more folks should spend more time, never know whose style ill copy next...
Romey
Cowboy inc

Last edited by sdcb27; 01-27-2004 at 03:02 PM.
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  #40  
Old 01-27-2004, 03:18 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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Hi, Romey! Some good thoughts there.
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  #41  
Old 01-27-2004, 03:33 PM
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I think originally the problem was that he used the actual kit blade that he bought from TKS and said he made it by hand and heat treated it himself. If this were the case. It would be a lie.
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  #42  
Old 01-27-2004, 03:40 PM
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Romey, well said, and I think you and Chuck are in total agreement (tho Chuck certainly doesn't need defending on this point )
But Chuck's PhotoShop project also makes the point (to me at least) that there's a big difference between similarities in style and near exact copying. My earlier objection had (has?) to do with possible creative misrepresentation, not imitation of style.

Mike


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  #43  
Old 01-27-2004, 04:43 PM
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Romey, You are getting of the subject here. The question is whether or not Hawk bought a finished blade, applied the handle and claimed sole authorship.

Not too long ago, and maybe it is still going on, Ebay was full of Darrell Ralph kits being passed off as being sole authorship customs. Now that is not fair. It is not fair to the customer, nor is it fair to the custom knifemaker that feeds his family from his earnings. When these are spotted the seller is advised that their listing is not truthful. They most usually change the discription or pull the item.

Any of the pro makers here can look at a knife and tell you who made it, when it was made and probably if the guy had a good day or a bad one. Check out his little game going on
here

As a newbie , I feel that it is a privilage to be here. The makers that share their knowlege are not obligated to do so. They must be respected. I type alot without thinking and have put my foot in my mouth a lot here. I try hard read carefully and understand what I read before comment.

I don't know enough to know for sure one way or another if these blades are handground or not. I do know if it looks like a duck, and the FARMER says it is a duck................


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  #44  
Old 01-27-2004, 09:14 PM
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Guess Wild rose and i just have common cowboy logic...
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  #45  
Old 01-27-2004, 09:26 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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You mean, like knowing which end is the horse's a&&???


(Edited to add: Pardon my impertinence, please! This was just opportunistic joking and in no way a reflection on this thread or anyone posting on it. If I offered any offense, please accept apologies.)

Last edited by fitzo; 01-28-2004 at 09:39 AM.
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