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The Folding Knife (& Switchblade) Forum The materials, techniques and the designing of folding knives.

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  #1  
Old 12-20-2003, 06:24 PM
plain ol Bill plain ol Bill is offline
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Grind freehand?

I want to start making some folders guys. I freehand my fixed blades but these little fellers are tougher to do by hand! I've tried three flolder blades now and lost more skin than with all the fixed blades I've ground. And these little fellers get hot quicker too -- ouch!. I'd like to know who freehands, and who uses a jig of some sort to grind their folder blades.


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Old 12-20-2003, 06:44 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I grind free hand and I think you'll find that most people do. Yes, some will use jigs but I believe the majority do it free hand. From previous threads, I would also say that many you try jigs eventually give up on them and learn to grind free hand.

It's just practice like everything else. True, it is easier to lose some skin with the smaller blades you aren't required to lose skin. With practice, you can flat grind or hollow grind very small blades - I do, down to 2" or so. It helps if you can slow the grinder down. The blade does heat up faster so use sharp belts and heat is much less of a problem. The good news is, little blades take very little time to grind.

Jigs can be useful but they are a limitation, just like those double wheel hollow grinders that have been discussed so much lately. Yes, you can grind a blade very quickly with one of those but, sooner or later, you need something ground differently like one fellow in the Newbies forum right now. He's been a hollow grinding maniac with that machine but now he needs to flat grind a blade and he can't do it. What now? Build another jig or another grinding machine? And after that is done and you suddenly need to grind a fantasy knife or a very big knife or a very small knife or a strongly recurved blade etc etc etc and your machine or jig won't do it. If you want to be a knifemaker your work will have more variety and show more originality if you put in the time and learn to grind free hand. A really small blade just means you learn to hold it with the edges of your fingers .....


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  #3  
Old 12-20-2003, 08:20 PM
philip bradford philip bradford is offline
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Although I am new to knife building, I too have faced the same delima you have on the best way to hollow grind a small blade. I found that a really fresh ceramic belt, like a 3m 967 cubitron 40, 50, and/or 80 grit seem to really keep the heat down. When a regular belt gets just a little dull, they really start to heat the metal up fast. Of course if you have an adjustable speed knife grinder this is less of a problem, but I use a Grizzly (at least until I save up enough for a KMG). I also use a very small pair of vice grips with a small peice of leather to keep from scratching the tang. This gives me much better control of the grind. If you try this method make sure you switch the vice grips around when you grind the other side of your blade or you'll have a difficult time keeping the angle of the grinds the same. I'm with Ray on the hollow grinding jigs. I gave serious thought to buying an expensive hollow grinding jig, but decided that I wanted the final product to represent my craftsmanship, not the quality of the hollow grinding jig. I also wanted to increase my skill with each knife I make. Probally not the best alternative, but if the heat build up is still a problem, you could use ats-34 tempered at 950f (don't quote me on the exact temperate, better check anyway) and grind with gloves. Less chance of lossing your tempering and not a bad steel to boot.


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Old 12-21-2003, 02:28 AM
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Alain M-D Alain M-D is offline
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I read in a book (Ron Lake I think) that some knifemaker make two
folder blades at the same time on the same piece of steel (each blade is profiled
but the end of the blade, close to the pivot hole is not cut.

One of the blades are used as handle grind the other. After the the two blades
are grinded, that only remain to separate them with a little cut in the center...
That seem to be a good idea!

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  #5  
Old 12-21-2003, 07:05 AM
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The hardest part about grinding folder blades is holding onto them. They have very short tangs and like was stated earlier they get hot fast.

To slove this problem I made a pair of scales made from 3/32 stock and driled a pivot hole in them. I also drilled and taped a 4-40 screw hole at the butt end. I screwed the 4-40 screw into one scale and left 1/6 sticking out and then screwed it into the opposite scale so there was a small space left. Then with a shortned a pivot sandwitched the blade between them and tightned it down TIGHT!! I now have a handle to hold onto. This gives me better control and stops burnt fingers.
I hope this helps,
Chuck


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Old 12-21-2003, 09:17 AM
txwoodchip txwoodchip is offline
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If you're making a knife that's put together with screws, you can assemble the knife temporarily to grind the blade. That way you have handles to hold on to and are not stuck with that short tang. I do it this way and use a rest...not a jig and grind the blade after HT. You have to keep it cool, but it works great. Hope this helps.


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  #7  
Old 12-21-2003, 09:59 AM
plain ol Bill plain ol Bill is offline
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. I think I'll try building a handle to hold the blade with. These big fingers of mine tend to envelop the blade and get in the way of a new 50 grit ceramic = OUCH. I shall persevere yet (if I don't run out of skin first!).


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Old 12-21-2003, 05:03 PM
L6steel L6steel is offline
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This thread really made me do some thinkin and look at the way I grind. I sit when I work so I tend to rest my arms on my knees. After thinking about it, I realized that I was sittin back and putting my arms on my knees to steady my hands. That doesn't work.
Today I tried something different. I scooted up some, towards the front of my chair. Pulled my arms in real snug against my sides. To move the blade across the belt I didn't move my hands, I just rotated my upper body at the waist. I had so much more control and stability this way than the old way, it was amazing.
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Old 12-21-2003, 06:35 PM
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There ya go, L6! That's the way nearly every book, every video, and every discussion we've had here in the past recommends as the way to get the most control. It definitely works...


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Old 12-21-2003, 07:20 PM
michael vagnino michael vagnino is offline
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blade grinding

About 80% of the knives I make are folders. I have tried everything you could think of to hold onto the blades while grinding them. Everything from vice grips to a blade on one end and a blade on the other to act as a handle. The Idea of a set of reusable scales as handle is real close to what I do. I tried that by the way and found it too limiting. I make slip joint, lock backs and liner locks with 1/8 and 3/16 pivots. So instead of having a bunch of different false handles around I made two different handle jigs . One accomodates my slip joint and lock back blades and the other my liner lock blades. By the way I made them out of 3/8 aluminum. It is extremly sticky. Once tightened the blade will not move. One more thing. I grind with a tool rest and a push stick.No more burnt fingers. Hope this gives you some ideas.

Michael
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Old 12-22-2003, 03:40 AM
L6steel L6steel is offline
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I use a tool rest for my rough grinding prior to heat treat but for finish grinding afterwards I just hold the blade free hand since there's not much steel to remove and you don't want to get it hot. I've been using the frame as a handle on my folders but I think I'm going to make aluminum handles like you mentioned Michael. Aluminum would be good for drawing heat and also is soft enough not to mark up the blade.
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Old 12-22-2003, 06:50 AM
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Depending on the pivot size I am going to use I also drilled and tapped a 4-40 screw near the pivot screw hole. For a 1/8in pivot I just put the screw through the pivot hole in the blade and tighten it down.


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  #13  
Old 12-22-2003, 09:26 AM
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Chris_Crawford Chris_Crawford is offline
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Hey, I'll be the first one here to admit that I use a jig for grinding small folder blades. Most of the blades that I make are between 2 1/3 and 3 inches.

The jig is very simple. It's a piece of angle iron with a bunch of holes in it. There is a hole on each end of the front to attach the blade to. One hole on the right side of the jig for grinding the right side of the blade, and one on the left for grinding the left side of the blade. The blade is secured to the fixture with a small screw and nut. I've also drilled a bunch of random holes in the front face. This allows me to place a brass pin in any of these holes as kind of a stop to keep the blade from pivoting down when grinding. I place the pin in whichever hole sets the blade level.

The jig also has a hole in the bottom that has been tapped for a screw. This screw allows me to set the angle of the grind. By turning the screw, I can grind at a deeper or more shallow angle. The screw also gives me something to hold onto while moving the jig across the table.

I start off by scribing a center line down my blades. I then set the jig at a very steep angle, say around 45 degrees. I make a couple of passes and and take the grind down close to the center line. This starts giving me a plunge at the tang area to use as a guide. I then back the angle down a little and grind a few more passes. As the plunge area gets more defined, the belt will kind of stop against it and you bump it. This results in a nice even plunge line. I keep backing the angle down a little at a time until I have the grind line back as far as I want it. For me, that's usually all the way to the spine of the knife.

By the way, the jig will help keep the knife from heating up as fast because the heat will pass from the knife into the jig. I do however dip the hole jig into my water bucket every few passes to keep it cool.

As far as the idea goes that it doesn't take skill to use a jig, and that the jig does the work for you, well that's not the case. If you build one of these jigs you will see that it does take practice and a steady hand to learn to use it. It doesn't run on a track, so you still have to control it freehand. However, once you learn to use it effectively, you will be amazed at what it will do for you. It use to be that grinding the bevels into the blade was my most stressful part of making the knife. Not anymore.

Anyway, here is a picture of my jig. Questions and comments are welcome.

-chris



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Last edited by Chris_Crawford; 03-30-2004 at 04:31 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-22-2003, 09:31 AM
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Jeff Higgins Jeff Higgins is offline
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I tend to use different ways to grind, depending on the grind I'm doing at the time. Sometimes I freehand, but sometimes I make a jig. I know some very high-end makers who use jigs for their folder blades, and the results is spectacular! I will say however that these guys only produce a few different designs with their jigs, and repeatability and control is why they do it.

If I have a huge blade, I will go freehand, but a smaller blade, particularly a w-i-d-e flatgrind, I liek to use a rest.

Its all what works for you, basically.


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Old 12-22-2003, 10:21 AM
plain ol Bill plain ol Bill is offline
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Glad I got this thread started guys. Keep the replys coming - it is nice to get all the feedback on different methods.


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