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Old 03-11-2017, 10:12 AM
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Blade Creation

I've been to the Randall web-page and read their description of how the blades are forged from tool steel, etc., but I wonder if modern Randalls are shaped on a CNC at some point toward the end.

I ask, because in close up photographs, newer Randalls have uniform vertical striations in the steel that resemble the CNC marks left on so many other 'factory' knives.

If this is a sacrilege, forgive me. I'm not trying to impugn the maker at all. There is certainly nothing wrong with machining. I'm just trying to understand Randalls and their history and production better.

Perhaps they create their stainless blades by these means?


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Last edited by Andrew Garrett; 03-12-2017 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:00 PM
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Hello Andy
I'm certainly no expert on knifemaking, but I think it safe to say that Randall's are made the time tested way, years of experience working with the hands to make those consistent grind lines, with a master teacher providing the training. OJT.. I'm sure Dirty Water will answer your question in a more knowledgeable way.
Regards, Sam

Last edited by samg; 03-11-2017 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:00 PM
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I'm not sure it is "safe to say" that all Randalls are made in the time tested way.

I usually don't comment on things I don't have verifiable facts on, or at least some strong indications... but I was told some time ago (source will be kept confidential per request...so this is basically hear-say so take it for what it is worth) that most of the smaller Randall blade models are now made by stock removal methods, and no longer are forged. It is possible that some of the larger models are no longer forged as they once were as well.

Whether this is true or not, or what the percentage of Randall's are made using stock removal methods is unknown to me, and since I collect only Vietnam era larger knifes, it isn't really an issue for me. But being an engineer, I recognize that times, metallurgy of blanks, and methods of manufacture for many things has change with time. A bar of O1 today may be far more ready to be manufactured by stock removal than it used to be and perhaps it is not necessary to forge the blade in the same way as before.

But that is for the shop to discuss.

Last edited by Jacknola; 03-11-2017 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 03-12-2017, 07:43 AM
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I have no doubt (In my military mind - ha) that all large Randall blades are forged.
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Old 03-12-2017, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Garrett View Post
I ask, because in close up photographs, newer Randalls have uniform vertical striations in the steel that resemble the CNC marks left on so many other 'factory' knives.
Jack, I think Andy is actually referring to not only the stock removal, but the actual grinding perhaps being done by a milling machine instead of by hand. I did not know what a CNC machine was (Computer Numeric Control) but I believe it's a milling machine that "presto" spits out the knife. "No fuss, no muss". Set the numbers in the computer and push "go".
I'm going to look into them more, just to understand. Modern technology...I would be shocked if Randall used these machines. Heck, they would have to change their name to "Computer Made Knives"
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Old 03-12-2017, 07:58 AM
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Here are three pictures just quickly grabbed from the web. The evenly spaced vertical striations are what I am referencing. I've seen a lot of hand ground blades in pictures and in person, and none have scratch marks so uniform and precise--it looks like the marks on a couple of mass produced folders I own. If they are indeed hand ground or honed on something proprietary, I'm curious what tooling they use (maybe that's protected information). If Randall has evolved to more modern manufacturing techniques, then cool. I'm just trying to expand my historical knowledge of the great knives and knife makers.





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Old 03-12-2017, 08:34 AM
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I just sent them a question on their 'contact us' page.

I will share their response here.


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Old 03-12-2017, 08:41 AM
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Here is a close-up of the grind lines on my mid '60's 12-8. Definitely different. But that was 1960's technology. I'm sure some changes in technology upgrades have happened. Very interesting thread Andy. Thanks, Sam

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Old 03-12-2017, 08:45 AM
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Andy, what model Randall's are you illustrating above? One looks like a 27, the other a 3?
Thanks, Sam
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  #10  
Old 03-12-2017, 09:25 AM
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This is off Randall's Website. No mention of a computerized machine.


KNIFE CONSTRUCTION
knife constructionknife construction

THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS IN THE HAND-CRAFTING OF RANDALL MADE KNIVES.

Only the best quality material, craftsmanship and experience will produce the finest knife. We use the following procedure, and you certainly may try it if you desire.

1. Obtain a piece of carbon tool steel knife stock.

2. Heat it cherry red and hammer out the rough blade in the general shape desired.

3. Grind the rough forged blade to the size and shape of the blade desired.

4. Harden the blade by heating it cherry red and then immersing it in tempering oil. Draw out the brittleness and internal stresses by tempering blade at low heat until it becomes a straw blue color and can be cut with a new file.

5. Grind in lines, bevels and contours and remove roughness.

6. Use a coarse hone and true up the cutting edge, removing any remaining waves and unevenness.

7. Refine the blade on a fine grit wheel to remove scratches made by the coarse hone.

8. Smooth the blade, first with coarse and then with fine grit emery cloth.

9. Polish the blade on a glued-up coarse emery wheel.

10. Cut and shape the hilt from one-quarter inch brass. Drill a hole and file it to rectangular shape to fit the handle tang. Fit hilt to the blade and solder in place.

11. Fit the handle to the tang, cutting rectangular holes in pieces of fiber, plastic or leather. Slip into place and glue each separately. Drill a piece of one-half inch Duralumin for the butt and recess it to fit the tang. Drive it on tightly and peen it into place, or thread end of tang and use nut. When the glue is thoroughly dry, roughly shape the handle with a coarse file. Finish shaping with a finer file. Then smooth it, first with coarse and then fine emery paper. The hilt and butt are filed and sanded as the handle is shaped.

12. Polish the blade with a medium grit glued-up emery wheel. Polish the hilt and butt on a muslin wheel charged with polishing compound.

13. Sharpen the blade on a medium grit hone. Always use special honing oil for all honing.

14. Polish the blade on a fine grit glued-up emery wheel and again polish the hilt and butt.

15. Give final sharpening to the blade, using a fine grit hone.

16. For final polishing of the blade, use a hard polishing wheel to remove the last fine hone scratches. Give final polish to the hilt and butt and the final polish to the handle with a soft muslin wheel.

17. Make or have made a sheath patterned to fit the blade with a stop for the hilt so the point cannot pierce the sheath and with splines along the side to prevent cutting of the stitches. Use a keeper strap and fasteners to hold the knife in the sheath. As a result, just as we take immense pride in each Randall Made knife we produce, you can take pride in each one-of-a-kind Randall Made knife that you own.

Caution: Grinding steps #3 and #5 require great skill in getting the lines and bevels of the blade true by eye. These are dangerous operations, requiring good goggles to protect the eyes from slivers of steel. The grinding dust is unpleasant; use a blower if possible. In all grinding after tempering, never overheat the blade.
Muslin wheel polishing of the hilt, butt and handles and the final polishing of the sharp blade are very dangerous operations. These wheels can easily snatch the blade from the grasp and cause it to fly through the air.
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Old 03-12-2017, 09:37 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Sam, I read that too. That's what prompted the question. I thought perhaps that this was a long published procedure that maybe needed and update or an addendum.

The more I look at the marks on the blades I shared, the more I see the work of a mill. The edges and the grind lines even have that tell-tale spear point where the fine tool head moved over a fraction of an inch and changed direction for the next pass.

I'm sorry that I don't know which models these are. I just did an image search and grabbed a few pictures that illustrated my question.

Again..., machining is fine. I just want to know how they are made for the same reason I can't stop watching 'How it's Made'.


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  #12  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Garrett View Post
The more I look at the marks on the blades I shared, the more I see the work of a mill. The edges and the grind lines even have that tell-tale spear point where the fine tool head moved over a fraction of an inch and changed direction for the next pass.
So Andy, are you referring to a slight horizontal line, indicating a change of direction of the tool head?
Can you post a close-up of an example?
Regards, Sam
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:14 AM
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Andy, do these CNC milling machines produce large knives as well?
Sorry about my ignorance here, but could you give a condensed process from steel bar, to finish product that these machines contribute to the knife making? So the shaping and forging process by hand is eliminated? Wouldn't that render the knife weaker than say vintage handmade knives?
Thanks, Sam

Last edited by samg; 03-12-2017 at 10:18 AM.
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  #14  
Old 03-12-2017, 01:03 PM
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A CNC machine has nothing to do with strength. It's just a process of stock removal that is automated to some degree. I don't see why a knife would be better or worse. It just means less human contact and fewer opportunities to make a mistake I guess. There are a few custom makers who use CNC machines.

CNC speed is a question of how big the cutting head is. The finer the head, the slower it goes, but the better the finish. IF the images I posted indicates milling or CNC work, then it looks like very fine milling which took some time. If it is hand work, I am curious how that finish was achieved.

I will attach a picture or two of blades that I have in the bottom of my work bag.
One is a Master. It was purchased at a truck stop in Boise for $6.
The other is a Smith & Wesson that I got for free when I ordered some duty equipment from Galls.
Both were made in China. They were certainly machined.
The milling marks are clear on each.


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Old 03-12-2017, 01:16 PM
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I punched in CNC milling knife blades in a YouTube search and got some cool videos. That would be a much better representation of how its done than anything I could explain. I'm no machinist.


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