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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 12-28-2013, 05:55 AM
RJO RJO is offline
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Couple of questions before I get rolling.

I'm about to order some O1 for blades, and I'll hopefully grab supplies for a small heat treating forge within the next day or two. At long last, my adventures in knifemaking shall begin. I don't think a belt grinder is gonna happen any time soon, so it's looking like files and elbow grease for now, plus maybe a shot of an 8" bench grinder wheel for rough stuff. C'est la vie

I've been doing a bit of reading, though, and I saw it suggested to leave O1 at least 1/8" thick all around to help prevent cracking and warping during the heat treat. This worries me somewhat, as the steel I'll be ordering is 1/8" thick for relatively small blades. I feel like taking files to hardened steel for beveling and such will result in a lot of ruined files. Will I really need to carve blades from hardened steel, or did I just happen across a particularly generous estimate? What can I get away with... and, come to think of it, how long will files last against hardened O1?

Also, I'm planning on doing a variation on the coffee-can forge using a one-gallon paint can full of dirt. There will be a second smaller can, or possibly a steel pipe, inside. I've found a few examples of soil being used as insulation. No one seems particularly unhappy with it, but I'd love some direct expert opinions before I do something irreparably stupid.

Finally, I have a stick I'd maybe like to use as a handle. It's been sitting indoors drying out for a couple years, and it's shaped nicely to fit a hand. Like, literally, it's a stick. Small tree branch, species unknown, about an inch in diameter, crack-free and quite solid. Can I stabilize it, finish it, drill holes in it, and expect it to maintain unity with a blade?

Thanks in advance! Oh, and I HAVE done lots of searching and reading here and elsewhere, but some things have flatly eluded me.
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  #2  
Old 12-28-2013, 07:34 AM
Ed Tipton Ed Tipton is offline
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RJO...Well, here we go again. I guess it's just human nature to go against the grain, but I don't understand why it is that people insist on setting themselves up for failure. There is absolutely no doubt that o1 is capable of producing an excellent blade when properly heat treated.
It sounds as though you are working on a limited budget, so why would you want to begin this venture using a steel that is more expensive, and definitely not recommended for beginners. O1 can be difficult for even experienced smiths, and it is almost a given that as a beginner, your venture will not be successful.
A far better choice would be either 1080 or 1084 which is very inexpensive and readily available from Aldo or Kelly Cupples. These steels are very forgiving, and are easily heat treated by any individual who possesses a forge and an oven. The resulting blade will prove out to be an excellent blade and probably superior to a blade made of O1 which has been poorly heat treated, and the forgiving nature of these steels gives a beginning smith a chance to be successful on his first attempt.
I am not sure about the insulating qualities of soil or clay. I do know that it is common practice for smith's to line their rivet forges with clay prior to ever firing them up. They do this to prevent the forge from burning through.
There should be no problem in using your "stick" for the handle. Ideally, it should be stabilized prior to attaching it to the blade, but should be capable of providing your knife with a serviceable handle.
Many a knife has been made using nothing but sandpaper and files. It is not easy to do ... but it can be done.
A word of caution in using the bench grinder. Power tools are great...and they enable someone to do a lot of work in a very short time...but they can ruin a piece just as quickly. In the beginning stages, it could help to speed things up, but I would avoid using it as the knife nears completion. A bench grinder can nullify hours of filing and sanding in a single second, and make it very difficult to recover from your mistake.
A quality file will be ruined in short order trying to file hardened steel. Knife steels are very hard when properly heat treated, and they will ruin even the best file in only a few strokes of the file. The steel should be filed when in the fully annealed state.
This is experience talking to ya. Good luck!

Last edited by Ed Tipton; 12-28-2013 at 07:41 AM.
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  #3  
Old 12-28-2013, 08:56 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Everything Ed just said, twice! I would add that using soil as an insulation in a forge would probably work but why on earth (forgive the pun) would anyone choose to do that when ceramic wool is cheap, plentiful, and easy to use? The insulating qualities of ceramic wool are likely to be much better than soil. The wool is much less weight, and doesn't require any special effort to keep it from falling out of the forge. Buy som Inswool or Kaowool from any knife supply house or hightemptools.com


We have a Chat Room every Sunday especially for new guys, you should really try to be there. Details in the Sticky thread at the top of the forum ...


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  #4  
Old 12-28-2013, 09:03 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Ray and Ed are giving sound advice. You can't afford a 2k knifemakers grinder? Go pick up a 4x36 belt sander. It's not as fast but gets the job done faster than files and safer (and cleaner) than a hard wheeled bench grinder. Just get a direct drive model, the belt drives don't hold up. Every one of my knives were made on a 4x36.
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  #5  
Old 12-28-2013, 10:32 AM
RJO RJO is offline
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Thanks for the wise words, guys.

Maybe I just have extraordinarily bad timing, but 1084 has shown "Out Of Stock" at Aldo's site each time I've visited, like, ever. 1095 appears readily available, but I've heard it's not as good for beginners... In fact, I've heard rather polarized advice about darn near every steel available, which is actually why I've hung with O1 thus far. It's tough to sort the hairsplitters from the hacks. If O1 dooms me to failure, I'll start with something else.

As for the dirt forge, well, it's a very short walk to a very large supply. Might not perform as well as ceramic wool or maybe firebricks, but the convenience is appealing. I figure I'm not out much (well, nothing) if I decide I don't like it, in which case I'll dump the dirt back in the garden and try something proper.

I'll definitely consider a 4x36. I'm a little hesitant to buy physically large tools here at home, though, because I don't know how much use I'll get out of them if I end up moving more permanently to AK. It looks like they're readily/locally available on Craigslist, so that might be an option. My grandfather made violins as a hobby, but he's no longer using his tools because, well, he died a month ago. Apparently his basement shop has a drill press, a wood lathe, some other power tools, and probably a lot of hand tools that need to be dispersed from the house. I'll have to check that out as well - in fact, I don't have a choice. That stuff is heavy and they need me to carry things up the stairs.
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  #6  
Old 12-28-2013, 10:49 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Sorry for your loss. It would be an honor to his memory good to start making pretty things with his tools. Look into 5160. It makes good knives and is very forgiving in the heat treat. Not to mention, it's also pretty cheap.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2013, 04:40 PM
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Walt- Walt- is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJO View Post
...

As for the dirt forge, well, it's a very short walk to a very large supply. ...
That is funny!

Coming from a newbie 1084 is the way to go. I made three knives with little more than a file and sandpaper. It is very slow going and tedious work. If you are the type person who can work with that you will make a great knife. Patience, patience, and more patience will pay off. Have fun.

P.S. Sorry for your loss.


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Last edited by Walt-; 12-28-2013 at 04:49 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2013, 05:43 PM
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Naboyle Naboyle is offline
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Email Kelly Cupples. He always has 1080. Heck of a great guy to deal with. Plus free shipping on orders over $100.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2013, 09:13 PM
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racinca racinca is offline
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Alpha Knife Supply www.alphaknifesupply.com has lots of 1080. Also Aldo does have 1084 in stock if you select 0.156 (5/32) thickness. That would be a good thickness to work with if you are doing stock removal though it is really too thin for forging. He also has plenty of 5160 which would also be a good beginner choice, but only in 1/4 inch and thicker which is good for forging but too thick for stock removal unless you plan to make a huge knife (and you should probably stick with small to medium sized knives in the beginning).
Tony


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  #10  
Old 12-29-2013, 06:04 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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While dirt is "dirt cheap", not all dirts lend themselves to forge lining. One of the things you will run into with a coffee can forge, if using a bernzomatic or other similar torch, will be getting things hot enough and getting even heating for any heattreating using hard or dense liners. You will need to go with insulation type material - K wool or the like to get the forge to work even half decent. Heattreating blade steels is a little more complex than what you have indicated in your description.

My advice would be to do a bunch more reading/research before you start building forges and making knives. There is a lot of science and physics involved with the process. You don't need to understand it all, but you need to know what is happening and why.

Very sorry for your loss.
Repurposing your grandfather's tools is a good thing. Just remember that wood working tools were designed for wood and are marginal when working steels. Use carefully and clean away all the residual wood dust before making sparks.


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  #11  
Old 12-29-2013, 05:58 PM
RJO RJO is offline
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I'm fairly well-acquainted with the methods and chemical processes involved in heat-treating. I know reading about it isn't a perfect substitute for actually trying it, but I've done several months' worth of research and I'm confident I've at least got a handle on the concept. I do apologize if it seems like I don't know what's going on, or if I appear to be cheerfully ignoring the golden advice y'all are offering. I'm definitely listening, and I am thinking 1080 may be the best option at this point.

In any case, though, so what if If I screw up some heat treatments? At worst, it's a few hours of my otherwise-wasted time and maybe a few bucks in steel. Learn what not to do, or what to do differently. I guarantee I've laughed off much worse with my models than anything I could foul up with a basic knife, and it's not like I'm trying to start up a premium blade factory, or even sell anything I make. It's just for grins.

I spent the day cleaning out my grandfather's dump of a house. He happened to have a really nice old 4x36 and disc sander with a 1/2 HP motor bolted to his bench, along with a 54" bandsaw, a big drill press, and a metalworking lathe. All are old and built to last forever. I'd love to get my hands on them, but I'll have to see what the rest of the family wants to do first. At this point, though, I'm closer than ever to having a solid knifemaking shop Acquiring some/all of his tools might make it easier to toss cash at a forge, so it might all work out quite smoothly.

Along the vein of grandpa's tools, I grabbed a pile of files as well (also endless other hand tools). I'm sure some are quite dull, and I've seen files turned into blades with reasonable results. Would I be crazy to anneal one or two and grind them into blades, or would I run into heat treatment difficulties there as well?

Again, I know I must sound like a typical pig-headed noob through a lot of this. I really do appreciate all the advice offered thus far. Bear with me - this is INEXPERIENCE talking
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJO View Post
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Along the vein of grandpa's tools, I grabbed a pile of files as well (also endless other hand tools). I'm sure some are quite dull, and I've seen files turned into blades with reasonable results. Would I be crazy to anneal one or two and grind them into blades, or would I run into heat treatment difficulties there as well? ...
I don't believe you will run into heat treat difficulties if you perform the procedures correctly while using old files

There is nothing wrong with that knowing you are dealing with unknown steel. I have seen some pretty nice knives made out of old files. Your results could be mixed of course. My only advice is to use 1084 when you can to make a "quality" knife as a new guy. Also when starting I would recommend making one knife at a time from start to finish. Doing this allows time for you to understand the process as a whole. When I do this it gives me time to think about what I have done wrong and what I have done right. It works best for me anyway.

Most of all relax and have fun with it. I assume that it the purpose of this exercise


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Last edited by Walt-; 12-29-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:19 AM
RJO RJO is offline
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Ehh, after poking around and reading file-related information, I decided not to mess with them for now. It's not like they'll evaporate if I leave them sitting too long, so I might as well figure out what I'm doing before I ruin anything that's currently somewhat useful.

I have some 1080 on the way. Next step is forge, side dish of tools. For better or worse, the adventure has started...
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  #14  
Old 12-30-2013, 05:34 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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I like the files. You can work them hard then temper or heat treat. If you have any files marked "Black Diamond" those are special, don't loose them. Nicholsons are good, I haven't had a lot of good luck with the old Simmons.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:42 AM
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miketheknife miketheknife is offline
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I wish I had found this site and all the free advice before I started this most addicting hobby. I would have saved myself much agravation if I had. I will tell you from experince that the 1080 steels are very easy to work with and can be heat treated with ease. Good luck on your journey to become a "knife maker".
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