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The Sheath/Holster Makers Forum This is the place to discuss all forms of sheath and holster making.

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  #1  
Old 05-15-2004, 11:10 PM
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Buddy Thomason Buddy Thomason is offline
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Question Integrating Sheath Design & Knife Style

Collectors like me discover a couple of things pretty quickly. 1) Not all knives come with sheaths. 2) The sheaths that come with some knives don't do much to enhance the knife or, at worst, don't match, don't fit and actually detract from the pleasure of owning a fine knife!
That's when I started lurking over here on your sheath making forum.
I've got a knife that I really like and I want it to have a sheath that will enhance its qualities, such that when someone picks up the knife and pulls it out of its sheath, they get the feeling that the sheath and knife were conceived together - matched - like 'hand in glove' so to speak.
Naturally, I'm interested in how knives I own were made, how the maker chose this or that design element, etc. And, naturally, I have the same interest in the design and execution of the knife's sheath.
I hope this is OK to do on this forum - I'd like to post an image of the knife in question - my sheathless knife - and see if folks would be willing to share their thought process concerning design ideas, appropriate materials, method of carry, etc.
This is not a solicitation for a proposal or bid, but rather an exercise in keeping with the spirit of open discussion and sharing of knowledge that is the hallmark of the CKD Forums. Hopefully we will all benefit.
This knife may be a bit different than the ones I often see featured with their sheaths on this forum, so I hope that won't be too much of a problem. Here is the image. Thanks in advance for any and all comments. BT


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  #2  
Old 05-16-2004, 12:33 AM
Sandy Morrissey Sandy Morrissey is offline
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Knife sheath combo----

Hi, Doc-----Your posting here is most welcome and the subject is dear to my heart. The marriage of a knife and sheath has to be compatible if it is to have any value as to appearance or function. Many variables go into the design of the sheath such as blade shape and length, single or double edged, single or double guard, absence of guard, width of the guard, etc. Obviously some knives will not adapt to a pouch type sheath due to large guards or quillions. A fold over sheath (stitched on one side) is not used on double edge knives which require welted construction on both sides or on blades with a radical trailing point or up swept tip such as seen on some fillet knives. The length of the blade will often dictate the carry position such as strong side or cross draw, either right or left handed. The angle of the carry such as a straight drop or canted butt forward also has to be considered as a customer requested feature. One important feature is the belt loop which should be made to fit the belt the customer will use. Too loose and you will not be able to stabilize the location of the knife. There are many types of sheaths that can be considered as primitive, western, Mexican, modern, etc. These can be embellished with border stamping, over all stamping (such as a basket weave), floral or figure carving, conchos, fringe, beads, quills, edge lacing, etc. More later---------Sandy


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Last edited by Sandy Morrissey; 05-16-2004 at 11:15 PM.
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  #3  
Old 05-16-2004, 01:07 AM
DC KNIVES DC KNIVES is offline
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Great topic Buddy and a very cool knife. As a knifemaker, it angers me that some do not offer sheaths with their knives.To me it is like selling a car without wheels.Even if the maker doesn't like leatherwork or finds himself inept to do it there are many fine sheathmakers out there looking for work. I also have been to shows where some makers have a box of generic sheaths under their table and just pull one out when a knife is sold. No package, no class and probably ill-fitting. IMHO not a good deal for the customer.
I have been coming here for quite awhile now and most everyone here believes the a sheath and the knife are a package,not only to look good but to carry well and do its main purpose of protecting the knife and its owner.
For doing a sheath for the knife shown, I myself like doing inlays with a cuff style sheath like this.


It would also look good with a nice carved sheath like Sandy or Chuck do.
Whatever you decide ,that knife deserves some good leather.Thanks again for a good topic.Dave
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  #4  
Old 05-16-2004, 07:24 AM
Frank Sigman Frank Sigman is offline
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Buddy, you need to ask yourself a few questions before starting a sheath design, like what will the knife be used for? Will it be taken out in the field in all kinds of weather? Will the knife be carried a lot and how (concealed, for self-defense, on a belt, lashed to a pack, or L B V, etc) If you want to use Kydex, what kind of finish does the knife have? Will that finish be mared by a Kydex sheath, or liner.
In lots of ways the design of a working sheath is more complex than the design of the knife.


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  #5  
Old 05-16-2004, 10:43 AM
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Tim Adlam Tim Adlam is offline
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Buddy,

If it was my decision to make regarding the style of sheath for this piece, I would go for a black or
burgandy leather-bodied metal-tipped scabbard 'ala Joseph Rodgers & Co.

A rig like that is both classic and graceful and would fit this knife to a "T".

Tim


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  #6  
Old 05-16-2004, 02:29 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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First off I want to say that Buddy was concerned enough that this type of post might get misconstrued into a misconception of his intent that he contacted me before posting. I understood his concerns, but felt that this type of post would be a benefit to this forum rather than a detriment as hopefully it will be a starting point that will get more collectors/users interested in the process of matching knife and sheath.

Secondly I agree with everything said here - as both a knifemaker and sheathmaker (like Dave) I can say that Frank's statement "In lots of ways the design of a working sheath is more complex than the design of the knife." is definitely true. There are so many considerations that go into a well designed carry system: body shape, knife style and usage, where one carries a knife, etc., etc, etc. that I often spend more time in the design considerations than I do in the actual construction.

My thoughts on the knife pictured:
Consideration one: For what reason will the knife be carried/used? Buddy we all need more info in this direction.....

Style: The style of the knife here in my view is a crossover piece - In one sense it could be viewed as an interpretation of a "period" piece so therefore Tim's design suggestion is one option, yet on the other hand I also see it as a modern fighter with classic period styling i.e the stag grip rather than micarta, etc. So I am going to go through a basic design process on the assumption that the customer views the knife similarly and wishes to have a user, but with a certain amount of period flair.

So in my view you have a classically styled fighter and what is more classic than the Searles Bowie (some controversy over it's originality not withstanding )


The basic Searles sheath (without ring) is just about what I would design with some options (stating up front that I design and construct only in leather and this therefore "colors" my work. Kydex and other synthetics are beyond my realm, yet depending on the intended use of this knife or any other knife could/should also be considered - I am not a "leather" snob and KNOW that the synthetics definitely have there place).

First what does this sheath design offer? Mainly with the stud fastener or a variation on the theme it allows different options of carry by using variations on the simple frog system. Secondly it can fit this knife in not only a period style, but also goes well with the crossover modern "fighter" styling of the knife

With the above said and going on the theory that this will be carried as well as displayed and that the customer is looking for some carry options this then is the base I would work from:
Option 1: metal throat and toe or not? On a period piece these are a definite, but in my experince they also have some negatives. First they make the work in general more difficult as they must be fitted properly and therefore take more time and subsequently increase the price. Second they can and will dent over time which depending on your view point is either a negative or positive. Third for a fighting or concealed carry knife they have the added disadvantage of being shiny (depending on finish of course), of making noise more than "plain" leather, and finally depending on the carry mode (such as concealed) metal is cold, uncomfortable. With the crossover period/modern styling in mind then I would tend to steer the customer away from metal for those reasons (again depending on intended use).
Option 2: Plain or decorated? This is really a matter of personal taste on the part of the customer and there are scads of options: an inlayed sheath such as Dave's pictured above, stamped, carved, and so on.

So here are a couple of ideas that I would work from with the appropriate variations:
This first picture shows an attachment method that makes for great adaptability it can be attached to a bandoleer as shown to a shoulder rig, or two a variety of belt carries so that it could be carried horizontal, angled, or vertical. (no the fringe, etc are not appropriate to the knife under discussion)
. The second image shows the knife attached to a belt loop aka frog - for this knife I would most likely not use the laced front loop, but a closed front loop as seen in picture #3.

This third image is close to what I would envision in so far as a vertical belt carry and can be easily adapted to other positions. With the set up attachment on the back of the first sheath - the loop and stud could actually be eliminated, although the loop could be used for design effect.


The style carving illustrated on the two above sheaths IMO is inappropriate for this style knife. I would either go for a plain sheath with just some border lines - let the beauty of the leather shine through - or I would go for something on the order of the following two sheaths:
First a more modern "gun engraving" style:


Second - this style carving. In fact with some variations: no concho, and the above carry system, this is the style that I would lean towards if I had free rein to design a sheath for this knife based on the customers assumed wants/needs.


Well once again I have probably used ten words where one would work - but this is basically the though process I go through with every sheath I design/make and Buddy did ask....

Caveat - of course all sheath styles mentioned are based on certain assumptions I made from the supplied image - the design could change considerably dependent on the customers wants and or likes and or other input - the customer is NOT always right (I have had and probably will have requests to make sheaths that were patently unsafe or just too freaking weird for me and i always am upfront with customers with my observations/opinions at such times), but their thoughts/ideas MUST be taken into consideration when designing/making any item.

Respectfully - Chuck


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Wild Rose Trading Co - Handcrafted Knife Sheaths



The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.

Last edited by Chuck Burrows; 05-17-2004 at 12:16 AM.
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  #7  
Old 05-16-2004, 06:16 PM
paul harm paul harm is offline
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from sandy to chuck, and everyone inbetween- i've got mental overload. such thoughts and suggestions- i've got to copy this thread for future reading. such ideas , sandy gave me overload before i read any futher. i sure as all he** can't add anything- so i'm just gonna shut up and follow this one. paul


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  #8  
Old 05-16-2004, 06:55 PM
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.....uuuuh, what Paul said When I saw the titleof this thread my eyes lit up and I said to myself "Self, this has got to be a real winner of a topic -- jump on in" But, as usual, the Masters have this one covered like split Aces.
The variety of styles suggested by Sandy, Dave and Chuck ought to provide plenty to think about, so I'll add my thoughts to Frank's comments on utility. A knife that can't be carried properly, safely, and securely for it's intended use always gets a negative reaction from me, regardless of the beauty or quality of construction of the sheath. I suppose that for a true collector knife, intended to be displayed rather than carried, many would dismiss the need to design a sheath which would be an appropriate style for the way the knife might have been used. I would say just the opposite, and insist on a design which matches the function as well as the style of the knife.
BTW, that is one beautiful knife -- mind providing some details ?

Mike


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  #9  
Old 05-16-2004, 09:59 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Been having a devil of a time today with my allergies (the Russian Olives are blooming UGGGH!) and just woke up from a nap.
Just saw the last two posts here and well whether it's the mood I'm in (a bit grouchy ) or if it's due to the fact that a recent episode here on this forum has made me a bit self conscious (a poster in a private communication made the observation that he felt this forum was a bit of an "exlusive" club), but anyway I figure I need to say this.

Yes Sandy and I have more time in on doing leather and sheaths but I know he feels the same way as me - we never want ANYONE to feel like that above stement - this is not an exclusive good ole boys club or even worse IMO the Sandy and Chuck fan club (of course if you want to start one and send us the dues..... .)
Sandy and I are not know it alls and in fact both of us feel that there scads more to learn about our chosen profession and the passion that drives our work. In our opinion EVERBODY whether you have been doing this 6 weeks or 60 years has something to offer and we NEVER want someone to feel otherwise.
It may seem bold to include Sandy in my comments, but he and I have had enough conversations about this subject that I know he feels as strongly about this subject as I do.

The doors are open for all here at CKD - so please everyone or anyone join in at anytime and on any subject - it's the only way we can ever learn and share.


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Wild Rose Trading Co - Handcrafted Knife Sheaths



The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.

Last edited by Chuck Burrows; 05-16-2004 at 10:02 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-17-2004, 12:10 AM
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I am with Tim. The metal tipped sheath with a button, (frog?) at he throat to keep it from slipping down the waist of your pants.


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Old 05-17-2004, 12:14 AM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Quote:
with a button, (frog?) at he throat to keep it from slipping down the waist of your pants.
Clarification - A frog is actually a leatehr belt loop attachment that uses the button on the sheath as an attachment point. Sheaths were worn as mentioned but that was not the original purpose of the stud.

See here - http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread....threadid=22215 - for a beautifully executed slightly variant form of a frog


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.

Last edited by Chuck Burrows; 05-17-2004 at 12:22 AM.
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  #12  
Old 06-20-2004, 04:46 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Coops Post-Moved

Like the rest, I agree that a sheath should reflect the nature of a knife or it's *intended* usage.

I had the pleasure of doing photo work at a local show up here this weekend. Among the knives that came my way were two that were outfitted by Chris Kravitz of Treestump Leather in Maine. (He was also an attendee).

Both of these knives were meant for collections and display, I am certain. (We all know that they are functional, but you know as well as I that knives of this caliber are NOT users.) Here is an example of some REALLY fine sheath work that goes a long way to making these knives the standouts they are.





I don't think Chris is a CKD member, and in the spirit of this post this is a perfecto example of going beyond the norm. Dressy knives=dressy sheaths.

Coop


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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Old 06-20-2004, 04:46 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Moved

As an addendum to Jim's post - Other than the fact that you guys with DSL are LUCKY (it took almost 2 minutes to download those two images) LOL - Chris is one of "those guys" IMO that is in then top 10% - and he is not only a great sheath maker, but is also one of the great all around "leather artists" and this I say only from seeing his work online as well as Sandy M's observations.

here is one of my favorite Treestump's sheaths:
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/persian1.jpg

Just exquisite!!!


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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Old 06-20-2004, 04:47 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Sandy's Post Moved

Chris Kravitts--master craftsman----
It has been my privelege on several occasions to have met and talked with Chris at either the Blade Show or the Knifemakers Guild Show. He made as good an impression on me as a person as he did as a craftsman. His skill is undeniable and I wish that he had the time to display his work on this forum. The term "eye candy" would not do it justice as this is very much top echelon merchandise. His attention to detail reflects the love he has for the art. I consider his sheaths as collectible as the knives they contain. I am originally from Maine (Acadian French and Irish) so I feel a kindred spirit with Chris who is a genuine "down easterner" too! ---Sandy---


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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Old 06-20-2004, 04:48 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Sandy - maybe right there is the mix
I'm Cajun French aka Coonass (with a mix of Spanish Gitano and a large dose of Irish - which also helps) on my mama's side

Guess being from Acadia proper that makes you a "pre-Cajun" ????

Wonder if Chris being from the Far Nor'East has any Acadian/Cajun blood????


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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