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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 03-15-2013, 09:02 PM
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hondo76 hondo76 is offline
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forced patina/etching to blacken 1084 blade?

I'm thinking of trying this vinegar etch on my knife in the hat project. Has anybody here ever etched 1084 before also what grit do you recommend finishing the blade too before the etch. My goal is to blacken the blade and maybe bring out the Quench line if i can.

I think that the dark blade with light scales would look very cool.
If anybody has any pics of a blade done like this I would love to see it.

I'm gonna do this under the guidance of a local guy here that has done it on a few of his blades I'm just trying to gather up information to make my decision.
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  #2  
Old 03-15-2013, 09:44 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Ask your buddy what he thinks about doing a ferric chloride etch and not scrubbing off the patina with steel wool. That will give you dark gray patina with the 1084.

Doug


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  #3  
Old 03-15-2013, 10:31 PM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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1084 will get darker, but the easily scratched oxide layer should be removed, it wouldn't be durable enough to leave it as the finish.

Remove all oils from blade, Heat your vinegar in a canning Jar that is set in a pot of water. When It gets close to boiling put the blade in and etch for 10 minutes, pull out, neutralize and scrub off oxides with 0000 steel wool. Repeat till you like what you see. If the blade is too big for a canning jar you can do it in a pan in the oven set to 220 degrees. Nothing to it really except make sure there are no fingerprints or grease on the blade during the process.
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  #4  
Old 03-15-2013, 11:33 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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I use ferric chloric all the time. Baking soda will darken it a little if applied right after the etch. Or put it in the ferric and forget about it for a while. But obviously there are potential problems with that. Any grit as long as the final is by hand in my experience, the higher the nicer obviously.
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  #5  
Old 03-16-2013, 06:24 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Go to at least 600 grit. Any scratches left in the blade will only get bigger and darker when you etch the blade. There's another thread here about that problem. The vinegar etch is slower and more controlled, I use a 60wtt bulb in a gooseneck lamp to warm mine and keep it warm. You can leave it in over night with no worries. The FeCl3 is more aggressive unless diluted quite a bit. Not to argue with Eli, but I'd never put a blade in FeCl3 and walk away. It will exploit all the scratches and pits, if you forged the blade or if you used less than high grade 1084 (some from a certain supplier - not Aldo - had thousands of micro pin holes after etching).
In either case make sure you thoroughly kill the etch with baking soda solution or amonia and follow with soap and hot water wash. Some boil the blade afterward. Ferric will sneak up and keep etching/rusting the blade while you are not looking if you don't.
Go by the thrift store and get one of those tall glass vases or spaghetti jars for you etchant. One with a lid is preferrable. If you leave Ferric uncovered in your shop it will rust all your Fe based metal. Also vinegar is easier and safer to dispose. Both will stain your fingers so wear rubber gloves.
Tip - put a piece of rubber in the bottom of the glass container. You only have to let one blade drop to find out why. Also you can use the vinegar etchant later to stain sheaths or wood black....the "vinegaroon" reacts with the tannin in either to make them go to a soft black.

If you are really going for that "aged" look, mustard etch followed by a dip in muratic acid. This takes practice to get right so don't try it on a good blade until you've worked the process out on some scrap steel.


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Last edited by Crex; 03-16-2013 at 06:30 AM.
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  #6  
Old 08-26-2013, 08:12 PM
danedgeman danedgeman is offline
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perfect patina

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondo76 View Post
I'm thinking of trying this vinegar etch on my knife in the hat project. Has anybody here ever etched 1084 before also what grit do you recommend finishing the blade too before the etch. My goal is to blacken the blade and maybe bring out the Quench line if i can.

I think that the dark blade with light scales would look very cool.
If anybody has any pics of a blade done like this I would love to see it.

I'm gonna do this under the guidance of a local guy here that has done it on a few of his blades I'm just trying to gather up information to make my decision.
I found this out by accident, I have collected Case knives for years and put one of my carbon knives in the dishwasher with the drying heat on. When I got it out it was perfectly black. Have done this with multiple carbon blades and it works perfectly every time. Forget vinegar and other time consuming pains in the butt that may or may not work.
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  #7  
Old 08-27-2013, 04:42 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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While that practice (dishwasher) might produce the effect you want on the steel, it will play heck with most any handle material.
Plus part of the reason Hondo is wanting to etch is to enhance the edge-quench differential.
Since you are not actually etching the steel in the DW, it may not enhance this effect.
If I think to, I will give this a try with a blade blank that's already been HT'd and see what happens.


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  #8  
Old 08-27-2013, 05:40 PM
graveyard graveyard is offline
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danedgeman / i dont know how to dry only with a dish washer / do you know of any ohther non scid way,s do blacken carbon knifes ?
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  #9  
Old 08-27-2013, 09:53 PM
danedgeman danedgeman is offline
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no kidding

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Originally Posted by Crex View Post
While that practice (dishwasher) might produce the effect you want on the steel, it will play heck with most any handle material.
Plus part of the reason Hondo is wanting to etch is to enhance the edge-quench differential.
Since you are not actually etching the steel in the DW, it may not enhance this effect.
If I think to, I will give this a try with a blade blank that's already been HT'd and see what happens.
I have done this with mother of pearl,natural bone, wood and multiple other high end handles offered by Case. I have been collecting Case knives for many years. Every bday,christmas, anniversary, my wife/children get me a new one. At last count I have over 200. Thr carbon is my favorite because of the razors edge I get with a few strokes of the stone. Back to the point. I dont know if it is the heat of the "heated drying" cycle or what but the even black coating (patima) DOES NOT RUB OFF and doesnt rust either. As far as hard on the handles, most of my knives were $200 or better and I have yet to damage a handle. I wouldnt suggest it if I had ever damaged a knife of my own as they are very dear to me , Im sure your knives mean the same to you.
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  #10  
Old 08-27-2013, 10:03 PM
danedgeman danedgeman is offline
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run wash cycle

;462744]danedgeman / i dont know how to dry only with a dish washer / do you know of any ohther non scid way,s do blacken carbon knifes ?[/QUOTE]

Run the wash cycle just like you were washing your dishes and make sure "drying heat" is on. I dont know for sure but it is I believe the same effect as the weatherization treatment they use to test the effects of 20 years of weather in a 24 hour or so peroid of time. Also the steam is hot enough to scald you. As near as I can tell it looks just luke a knife that has been in your pocket for many years, and its TOUGH. The patima will not wash off or come off when cutting. I use my knives everyday, at work etc. It might come off with steel wool or an abrasive, i dont know because I have never tried to scrub it off.I oil my knife after about a week then it goes in the safe and I switch it out and so on.
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  #11  
Old 08-27-2013, 10:40 PM
danedgeman danedgeman is offline
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Crex

Quote:
Originally Posted by graveyard View Post
danedgeman / i dont know how to dry only with a dish washer / do you know of any ohther non scid way,s do blacken carbon knifes ?
This dishwasher method produces the exact same black patima that years of carrying in a hot sweaty pocket does only at an accelerated rate. Remember the turtle wax commercial a few years ago when they did the "year of harsh weather" test to show how well turtle wax stood up to a year of hot then wet then dry conditions? Same thing on a smaller scale.
The exact same molecular change as time only faster in a smaller controlled envoirnment
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  #12  
Old 08-27-2013, 10:47 PM
danedgeman danedgeman is offline
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I swear guys this works with absolutely no damage to handles, brass pins,silver bolsters etc. Acids and chemicle treatments will never touch my knives (to each his own, I mean no disrespect to others or their technics) think about all the cheap wal mart steak knives with their rivets and such you have run through the dishwasher with no damage.
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  #13  
Old 08-29-2013, 04:02 PM
Kostoglotov Kostoglotov is offline
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Repeated high temp thermal cycles on the handle may cause issues with handle material and/or epoxies leading to failure.

I think if you look at your favorite knife restaurants steak knives, you'd find fit and finish issues that most wouldn't find acceptable

YMMV
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  #14  
Old 08-29-2013, 07:21 PM
graveyard graveyard is offline
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danedqeman/ ill get the wife to run to unfinished blades trow for me i live close to a army base ive give a simply knife ore to to some boys going to the litterbox these seem to like dull no shine knifes . ill post after to washings ,
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  #15  
Old 08-29-2013, 07:31 PM
danedgeman danedgeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostoglotov View Post
Repeated high temp thermal cycles on the handle may cause issues with handle material and/or epoxies leading to failure.

I think if you look at your favorite knife restaurants steak knives, you'd find fit and finish issues that most wouldn't find acceptable

YMMV
Partner I swear, I have done this with every carbon knife I.Own including several mother of pearl , turquois etc. WITH NO ILL. EFFECTS. Not yesterday either but many years ago when I discovered this method by accident. The fit and finish on steakhouse knives wern't done by the dishwasher but were made that way in some sweat shop in Bangledesh by an 8 year old. Try it, don't, I was just trying to share some knowladge i have possesed for many years. Acid, boiling in vinegar? That sounds like controled damage to me but I am in no way an expert. What I do know however is that the thousand plus dollars of carbon blade exotics have been in my dishwasher as far back as 1988 and are still as smooth and tight as they were 20 some odd years ago.
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