What size blank needed to forge certain blades?

[Fulmaduro]

Hello, Tony Zanussi from Kansas City, MO here. Need some help regarding the size of steel blanks/bars required for forging certain blade sizes.

I have forged one hidden tang fighter blade from a 3/8" x 1" x 9" (approx.) piece of dump truck leaf spring. Afterward 7 1/2" tip to shoulders, O/A length 12", 1 1/4" wide and 1/4" thick. I will soon put a guard and handle on it. But I want to do more blades soon and am in need of ordering steel. What do you experienced forgers recommend size wise to acquire for various size blades as listed below:

Bowies
Fighters
Camp knives
Med/Lg daggers
Hunters/skinners

Is there a "golden rule" amongst forgers of blank sizes to be used for forging certain blades? Maybe how far should one forge/stretch a piece of metal in either direction to achieve a desired end result? Any help is greatly appreciated. Pics of my knife will be put up when I finish it. Thanks. Tony

[Ray Rogers]

I don't think there's a single answer to that. A lot depends on the steel you choose because they don't all come in the same size bars or rods. Simply put, I think most start with thicker stock and cut it to whatever length will have enough material to make a blade of the desired length (that can be calculated). Even so, how you work and the tools you have available affect how much steel gets burned away in the process and/or how much grinding is needed afterwards to clean it up. So, somebody could tell you X for a blade of Y dimensions but it might not be enough for you or it might be too much. Like most things we do, practice, practice, practice ....

[Doug Lester]

As far as the length of steel goes it will depend a lot on how you are shaping the blade. in the below picture each one of the soap stone marks was at one time 3" from the end of the bar at some point when I was shaping it.
IMG_0187.JPG
As you can tell this will throw you off a bit in judging the length of the bar you want to work with. That's why I like to start out with a long bar and forge the blade out first. For the stick tang on that knife I cut the bar about 1" past the third mark from the end and drew out the tang to a bit more than 3". Drawing out the thickness of the blade will also add to the length of it too.

The width of the blade is similarly effected. I would expect to add at least 1/4" to the width forming the bevels but how much will be determined by how far up the blade you forge your bevels and even the shape of the face of the hammer. With a long face at right angles to the hammer. Using a cross peen to draw the thickness of the blade out with the width instead of the length will also add more to the width.

Also if you start out with a thicker bar, let's say 3/8-1/2", you will have a bit more latitude with how you draw out the blade, even though it's more work. It's one of the things that I like about working with round bar, also one of the things that I don't like about working with round bar.

Doug

[Doug Lester]

Actually, thinking back when I cut the bar to make the tang after I had drawn out the blade I cut it on the mark farthest to the right in the picture which was originally three inches from the end of the bar.

Doug

[Fulmaduro]

Thanks for all the info Ray and Doug. I decided to just buy a few different sizes of 5160 and just start hammering. I will know what I need after hammering out a few shapes. I figured on 5160 since I already made one blade with it and differentially heat treated it and liked the results. I really appreciate all the great info on this forum. The best one I believe.

Tony Z

[NJStricker]

You might want to give Aldo Bruno, the NJ Steel Baron, a call and see what most guys who forget order. I think 1/4" x 1" is pretty popular, in 1084.

[Fulmaduro]

Originally Posted by NJStricker

You might want to give Aldo Bruno, the NJ Steel Baron, a call and see what most guys who forget order. I think 1/4" x 1" is pretty popular, in 1084.

I thought about NJSB and want to try 1084 also. But I wanted a good quantity of steel and found that Kelly Cupples will provide free ground UPS shipping for orders over $100. He has the 5160 but doesn't have 1084. I can save $31 shipping going the Kelly Cupples route. His system is pretty low tech. You must email him to get his current offerings. He doesn't carry any stainless, forging steel only. As of 11/12/12 he had 1075, CruForgeV, 1080, 1095, and 5160. Thanks for the input and hope this info helps somebody out. Please don't buy him out until after I place my order after New Years! Merry Christmas.

Tony Z

[Doug Lester]

5160 will work fine. It's deeper hardening than the 10XX series and easier to heat treat than the 1095 and the CruForgeV, which seems like 52100 with a bit of vanadium.

Doug

[Crex]

Want to keep it simple?
Get some modeling clay, shape it to the dimensions of your barstock and start mashing out the blade you envision. It will tell you what you can and can't do with that piece of steel quickly and quite accurately. Pay attention to how the clay responds to your mashing fingers, you can also see which way the metal will move when you hit it in certain places. Great learning tool.
You are basically doing the same thing with steel and hammer.....making it elastic with heat and moving it with a hammer.
Of course, a lot depends on your skill with hammer and heat. Practice practice practice

You will probably be hard pressed to tell the subtle difference between 1080 and 1084. Both Aldo and Kelly provide quality steel and wouldn't hesitate to buy from either.
5160 is good "learning" steel, but judging by the size of your start in the posted pic, trying to differentially harden a small blade of 5160 is a waste of time and effort. Complete emersion quench will give you the best results.

[Fulmaduro]

Carl, much appreciated! I saw that modeling clay trick in a German bladesmithing book I have laying round here, and had forgotten all about it.

Tony Z