grinding belt sequence

I am wondering what sequence of belts people use out there before going to heat treat, and then again after heat treat before going to hand sanding/finishing.

As a second question, for those who do more with files and paper than with grinders, what is a good sequence for this. I am into hand finishing but I'm not sure of the progression. IOW, I often feel like I am making too big of jumps between files, grits, etc. and so not really getting out all the scratches.

Thanks alot,

John

Hey John, I'll jump in on this one and try to help. There are as many ways to answer these two questions as there are knife makers out there. I'll give you what I've been doing lately, that has been working like a charm, for me! For stock removal pieces (after I've say taken a 52100 roller bearing and smashed and pressed it out into a billet), I profile the billet with a 60 grit, then grind the plunge cuts with a new 60 grit belt. Then I go to a 360 grit Trizac belt and take out the scratches until it all looks nice and smooth. I then take the piece over to the vise and use a 220 grit emery cloth wraped around a popsicle stick and lightly sand to check for deep scratches that the 360 grit might have hid. If there are any scratches (which there usually is), I simply go back a repeat with the 360 grit and do the spot check again. When all is in order, I then heat treat and then buff off the light scale with 500 grit rouge, on the buffer, then do the draw downs. Then, I go to a 1200 grit belt and once again smooth out the entire grind (plunge cut to point). I go back and test with a 800 grit emery with the popsicle stick and check for scratches. If none, then I either go to 1500 grit and do by hand and then 2000 grit. I stop usually at the 1200 grit depending on what effect I want the knife to have, and etch for a couple of minutes, sand and repeat etch, sand and repeat, again to reach the desired effect. I do this a lot with zone tempered 52100 blades. The upper part of the blade on the flats will sand differently than the super hard (below the temper line) part of the blade, because the steel is softer. You can mirror polish by hand or by buffing, on the bottom part below the temper line. I do a little of both. This sounds lengthy, but I've got it down to a science and I'm only spending a total of maybe 10 to 15 minutes tops for a basic user appearance. For my Damascus pieces it gets much more intrinsic. I don't do mirror finishes except on my bird and trout knives and they are the only stainless knives I make. I hate the stuff, but some customers want it.
For the second question, here goes. I started with nothing but files and sand paper, way back when. It was all I had. I ground the plunge cuts and used the draw method to do the grind with a simple Bastard file. Then sanded with a 80 grit, then 220 grit, then 400 grit. I usually stopped there as my knives then were pretty much users and there wasn't much to sand. That was about 18 or so hours by hand back then, and that was a lot of perserverance, let me tell you!!! There are a lot of other ways, but you will develop what works for you, as you build up your equipment.
I still, am always looking for new ways to speed up the process, but I must say, the better your knives get, the more finishing time will be envolved. My Damascus pieces, go through the same process as in the first paragraph, but I mirror polish by hand, after the 1200 grit, with 1500 grit before etching. Sounds crazy, but I'm getting real picky about scratches showing up after etching. Etching has a way of showing all the mistakes, of which then, touch ups and sanding and re-etching is sometimes just part of the process. Taking the time to get scratches out, no matter what the method or grit progression you use, will have it's rewards. And, rememeber you don't have to finish every knife with the same appearance. Play with it and have fun!! Sorry so lengthy, but I hope this helped.

Regards, Charles

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I have modified my progression recently. I am now grinding my initial bevels with a 90 grit belt. I found that the scratches left by 36, 50, and 60 grit belts were just too deep on my smaller blades to be worth the quicker stock removal.

I then move to a 120, 180 (or 220), 320, and 400 before heat treat. On the counsel of Bob Engnath several years ago, I do not try to lock in the plunge cuts until I get to 220 grit.

On occasion, I will even polish out an annealed blade before HT, just because scratches are so much easier to remove at that time. Then it is a relatively simple cleanup with progressively finer belts after HT, starting with a fresh 400, then Trizact belts from A45 to A30 to A16. Then I start over again with hand rubbing: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000.

After forging, I knock all the scale off with an angle grinder. Profile and prepare for heat treat with a 50 grit, followed by a 120.
I leave things a bit thick prior to heat treating, and once the heat treat is complete, I start back with a 50, then 120, 220, 400, and depending on the blade, possibly to 600. My goal in the finishing is to have a sharp blade by the time I'm done with the 400 grit. I then go to hand sanding with 400, then 600. About the only two finished I do anymore are etched or satin. If your going to etch, I don't recommend going any further than 600, otherwise the etch does not "bite" very well, and you end up with splotchy blades.
The whold trick to sanding is to get ALL scratches from the previous grit out, before moving on. This included thos little "shadow" scratches you can only see when you move the blade around under a strong light. Otherwise your just spinning your wheels.

"The whold trick to sanding is to get ALL scratches from the previous grit out, before moving on. This included thos little "shadow" scratches you can only see when you move the blade around under a strong light. Otherwise your just spinning your wheels. "

-Amen, Ed!

Hmmm...

I do pretty much what Ed does... nice to know I seem to have figured out a decent system...

Thought I was being lazy with the angle grinder, but not cutting through the scale makes things quicker and spares the belts some.

I had considered roughing out with a 50 grit, but not having really deep scratches also has its advantages. I currently rough out at 80 grit, though aluminum oxide doesn't seem to hold up as long as I'd like.

I learned the value of getting -every- scratch out per grit in a project in college... we had to make an -exact- disk and square from a cast silver ingot. They had to be -exactly- 1" square/ round and -exactly- 1/8' thick with -perfect- 600 grit on one side and flat mirror polish on the other. By hand!

Took a few tries....

after profiling with 60 and then 240 I grind the flats with 120 ans then 240...sometimes also 400. Then I grind the bevel with 60, 120 and finally 240. Then send to heattreat....then grind bevels only with 400 and handrub with 400.

Though I now have access to several nice grinders at a friends shop I still do the file and paper thing at home. I start with a 12" mill bastard, followed by a 12" second cut, followed by a 12" smooth cut. At this point I estimate I have almost a 200 grit finish using draw filing techniques. Then using paper wrapped around a stiff board I take it on up to 320 or 400 and then finish with paper wrapped around a piece of thick leather. I've found that a nicely done 400 grit hand rubbing gives a nice satin finish. I love the files but I hate the paper!

Guy Thomas

Thanks for all the great replies. Now for another question(s):

What belt and paper companies (3M, Norton, etc.) and styles/weights (Ceramic, Aluminum Oxide, Jflex, Trizact, etc.) do you find best? And where do you buy your belts/paper for the best prices?

Thanks again,

John

I like Klingspoor products for the durability and price balance. I've tried just about every belt out there, but so far my best/most production comes from the Klingspoor blue zirconia belt in 50 & 120 grits. With the 220s and 400s it's more important to have the flexibility for me, so durability isn't a big consideration there. For those I buy the Klingspoor "J-flex" belts in A/O.
As for finer belts, I really like the new Norton "Norax" in 600. When it comes to fine finishing belts, it's tough to get better than the 3M Micron belts.

I have discovered I like the matte finish left by a 120 or 180 belt. It looks good with the forge finish I leave along the spine on my blades. I don't grind most of my blades past 180 grit. Prospective customers either hate this or love it, but for the present there seem to be enough of the latter to keep me occuppied.

The process is more critical then the progression of grit.

How do you KNOW that ALL the scratches are out from the previous grit?

When hand sanding, use a block of some kind.
This protects your hands as well as allowing the abraisives to work more efficiantly.

I use a rubber rectangle that has been curved on one side to match my wheel diameter, as a sanding block, for most handwork.
There are other blocks of hardwood, plexiglass, cork, and felt as well, for special applications.

I use a cross pattern to insure the old scratches are out.
First sand in one direction(45' angle) untill all the scratches go the same way, then sand in the another direction.
Repeat these steps untill NO grind scratches appear.
Then I grain it all straight before I go to the next grit.
This process WILL work 100 percent of the time.
It will take you to a perfect mirror finish.(given time)

Thanks again to everyone.

Gene, thanks for the last post, and I'm looking forward to your video!

I have a question to Gene and all about the 45 degree angle sanding. I have read about this before and it makes perfect sense in theory. My problems in practice are my sanding strokes seem short and inefficient and what to do about the area just in front of the ricasso/plunge lines. IOW, unless I sand every grit along the long axis of the blade, I don't feel like I can deal with the plunge line area effectively. How do all of you get around this?

Thanks,

John

My solution for the tight spots was to make several different sanding "sticks" out of the old dark brown canvas micarta (I couldn't find too many other good things to do with it). I made sanding sticks with different cross section shapes. The one I use for the plunge cut area is a sharp edge triangle shape. I cut my sand paper with one of those paper cutters into 1"-1 1/4" strips. I wrap that around the sanding stick, and as the paper wear out, I just tear it off and rotate the stick. I also have a sanding stick made from a 1/8 X 1" piece of 1084 with thin pieces of hard rubber glued/riveted to it. This works especially well for convex grinds, or anywhere I have curvature. The rubber is nothing more than the stamping pad material you can get at Tandy. It's just about the right stiffness for this purpose.

Yah, What he said.
Except I use a rubber finger for a sanding block.
(you will see how it works in the video)