MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Factory Knife Customization & Mid-Tech Boards > Randall Knives Forum

Randall Knives Forum Discuss Randall Knives

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-26-2015, 07:50 AM
samg's Avatar
samg samg is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Matthews NC
Posts: 666
Early Heiser model C sheath

On another forum, they are discussing the maker of a model C sheath.
Pics:







Here are some pics of an early model C canteen snap made by Heiser.











Who do you think made the top sheath in question? And why?

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Regards, Samg

Last edited by samg; 11-26-2015 at 08:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-01-2015, 01:27 PM
Jacknola's Avatar
Jacknola Jacknola is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 651
Sam, I recommend not doing this type of thing on this board.

Elsewhere some people loved to post a little picture of a piece of an odd sheath/knife, etc., and ask for an opinion. Then they would play "gotcha." Never mind that they couldn't post a study of their own or even show that they knew how do a true study or present the results of one ... just gotcha... Often there was never even an explanation for their declarative "gotcha" opinions. This was usually a recipe for flame and discord.

I know you are not that type, but I suggest lets try to avoid that game here, please. If someone wants to discuss something about ... say ... this sheath, I recommend they start the conversation first.


OK, got that off my chest... I feel better now. So.....

I discussed these strange split backs in my original sheath study in the "magic Randall" line below ... but few seem to have read the whole thing (tedious it is, I admit). Heck, I'm pretty sure certain habitually disruptive people didn't even bother to read much of it when posted elsewhere on the net.

In any case, here is what may be a picture of the entire package of the sheath you posted... I filed this in a special case file long ago. If this isn't the actual sheath in question, it is its split-back twin from the same time period. And I suspect that time period is right at the end of the Heiser manufacture and the beginning of Johnson.



And here is a collage of pictures, some lift-the-dot brown button, one known Heiser made lift the dot, some horizontal Heiser-Randall stamped, some east-Randall stamped with harness rivets. I just don't feel like discussing them all or telling anyone which is which, because I do not have a coherent theory about this group of sheaths.



I have about 10 more that could fit into this class, all of them are split backs. As I noted in the original discussion here, and on KT, this collection has a question mark attached ... The particular sheath has the characteristics of a Johnson including stamp orientation, snap location, harness rivets, etc., yet has model numbers stamped that look a lot like known Heisers.

I am confident that Johnson did not make ANY lift-the-dots, and the harness rivet was his entr?e into the riveted sheath manufacture. But the use of the model stamp on those sheaths needs to be explained. So... have at it... I'm open to anything. I do have some thoughts that might shed some light on the contradictions but need to seriously organize everything.

By the way, I don't think the model 14 you showed fits the group in my opinion. However, I have one picture of a model 14 that DOES fit ... and it was used in the original study both here and on KT. It is a lift the dot snap, with east facing (Johnson-orientation) stamp, with model numbers that fit the font and characteristics of this group.



I've been looking at fonts on later 1950s era Heiser sheaths and have not been able to categorize them into time periods thus far.

Last edited by Jacknola; 12-02-2015 at 09:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-01-2015, 03:15 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 546
"certain habitually disruptive people"

I love it! lol
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-01-2015, 03:25 PM
Jacknola's Avatar
Jacknola Jacknola is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 651
Quote:
habitually disruptive...
Comment is not intended to indicate any particular person (s) or from any particular on-line location. I'm just fingering a class of people in general that are not just on the knife boards. You should see the rug discussion boards.

And I'm sure that some people that I believe are "habitually disruptive" think the same thing about me.... but of course they are wrong!


Last edited by Jacknola; 12-02-2015 at 09:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-01-2015, 07:27 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 546
I was kinda thinking about adopting that moniker for myself! lol
I'm certain that many would agree!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-02-2015, 03:01 PM
samg's Avatar
samg samg is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Matthews NC
Posts: 666
Hi Jack,
No games played or intended. The only intention was to try and stimulate conversation. But in hind sight, with all the detailed research that you did on this subject, and the unfortunate lack of much participation, it is very obvious that it isn't going anywhere. I am always optimistic though, hoping that bringing it up will jog a neuron or two in someone to start digging, just as you have.

I just have one observation from your post about those 2 sheaths:




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknola
I filed this in a special case file long ago. If this isn't the actual sheath in question, it is its split-back twin from the same time period. And I suspect that time period is right at the end of the Heiser manufacture and the beginning of Johnson.
Jack, its definitely a different sheath, as evidenced from the back of the sheath. If you look at the stitch count from the rivet to the leather split, different count. Notice also from the top photo, the rivet doesn't cover the stitch on the high side, as we see it does in other examples.





Thanks again Jack for all the time and effort that you have put into these subjects, and its great that the record is here for those who want to read it.

Regards, Samg
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-02-2015, 03:35 PM
Jacknola's Avatar
Jacknola Jacknola is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 651
I wasn't accusing you Sam, just venting some old bile.

By the way, here's something I've never posted before. These pictures illustrate why I think Johnson began stamping the "C" model sheaths on the front in late 1963 or so. The rough-back leather wouldn't take a solid imprint of the Randall-made stamp consistently...so... stamp the smooth leather front and leave the model numbers off.

If I get motivated, I will post a detailed set of data for these sheaths complete with the knives.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-02-2015, 05:48 PM
samg's Avatar
samg samg is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Matthews NC
Posts: 666
Sounds good Jack. When I have some time, I'll sleuth it too. Don't know if anything will be garnered, but its fun, and a learning opportunity, just as the other sheath research was.

I know you weren't accusing in any way, I just wanted to make my intentions clear. I have to be careful with my words, as there are many sensitive feelings out there. Not with you, but you never know who is monitoring... if you get my drift


Regards, Samg
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-03-2015, 01:18 PM
Jacknola's Avatar
Jacknola Jacknola is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 651
The title of this line is questionable. "Early Heiser C sheaths" have a Heiser stamp. These do not, and some may not be Heisers at all. So I'm also going to post this study in the original line, both to bump it and to keep all the info in one spot. Perhaps the title should reference split-back sheaths with reverse Randall stamp or something.

The class of sheaths studied here poses an anomaly. This anomaly was addressed in the original ""Grand Unification throry" by dismissing the anomaly as an accidental mis-stamp. Some worker-bee oriented the Randall stamp to the east on a Heiser sheath. Other odd-balls were treated as... typical odd balls. But now we have a quandary.

We know with assurance that there are Heiser-made sheaths with a typical Randall west stamp orientation and distinctive model numbers (see "sample"). We also have found Heiser-made sheaths with L-T-D snaps, horizontal stamps, with the same distinctive model numbers. And we have concluded that all L-T-Ds with a Randall stamp were made by Heiser.

And as already mention, a couple of L-T-Ds with an east stamp (Johnson orientation) were found with those same distinctive model numbers. But, since we have concluded that all L-T-Ds were made by Heiser, then we decided the stamp must have been misapplied at Heiser.

But now we have two split-back sheaths that have the characteristics of Johnson made. These characteristics include the location of keeper snap, an east-facing stamp, and with the harness/tack rivets at the throat that we have concluded marked the entry of Johnson into the riveted sheath market. But... these two split-backs have the same distinctive model numbers as the known Heisers... and we have concluded that Johnson did not initially stamp model numbers on his brown button sheaths.

To further complicate explaining the anomaly, the knives of all these sheaths are almost all green tenite, early 15s and 14s, and one knife that is knon to be 1961. In other words these knives were probably all 1960-62 era.

So...

(1) either Heiser made some split-back sheaths with harness/tack rivets, AND changed the orientation of the Randall stamp to face east; or

(2) Johnson made some harness rivet sheaths with stamped model numbers on his split-backs that were identical with Heisers, despite NOT using model numbers on his other brown-buttons; and/or

(3) Johnson made some L-T-D sheaths with east facing stamps, and stamped model numbers on the backs that were identical with Heisers, despite not using model numbers on his other brown buttons; or

(4) Someone other than Johnson of Heisesr made these sheaths but somehow acquired the font model number stamps use by Heiser and used them the same way Heiser did and used harness/tack rivets at the throat and positioned the keeper strap just like Johnson did;

(5) Or... ????

To make it easy for everyone, here is some raw data neatly catalogued with a cliff notes summary picture at the end















I'm open to a credible theory... or even a wild guess... as how this strange confusion of markers happened. And I'm glad to be here.

Last edited by Jacknola; 12-03-2015 at 01:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-04-2015, 01:38 PM
samg's Avatar
samg samg is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Matthews NC
Posts: 666
I agree Jack, that there are many anomalies with these sheaths when it comes to stamp orientations and number font styles.

As demonstrated in my original post in this thread, the Heiser model C L-T-D sheath has the Heiser stamp oriented horizontal, as we have always observed with their Heiser stamp. We see that same horizontal RMK stamp orientation in the other model sheaths as well. So I think it safe to say that when Heiser first got their RMK stamp, they oriented it horizontally as they always had with the sheaths dating back into the 40's.
Then perhaps (pure speculation) they began orienting the stamp vertically on all sheaths because on the smaller sheaths, the stamp was tight, edge to edge when applied horizontally, so they turned vertical.

As to the number fonts, as we established earlier this year, the serif numbers were heisers style all along, and from the outset of Johnson's era, when he started using model number stamps, they were non serif.
So whenever Heiser began the vertical orientation, perhaps not much attention was given to left-right, as long as it was vertical.

All is speculation, but after all of the consistency of Heiser using the serif numbers thru the years, I feel at this point, that Heiser made the lift the dot sheaths, irregardless of stamp orientation. For me, I put more stock in the model number font style. It was abundantly clear thru the extensive research, with a few exceptions, in the sheath maker threads.

Thanks Jack, and I will continue the search as well.

Regards, Samg.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
art, back, beginning, blade, case, demo, easy, edge, knife, knives, leather, made, make, package, post, randall, rivets, sheath, sheaths, stamps, stitch


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Early RMK sheath Identification samg Randall Knives Forum 22 08-18-2019 09:00 PM
Early RMK sheath research results samg Randall Knives Forum 6 04-05-2015 01:16 AM
Heiser-HKL and Johnson RMK sheath differences samg Randall Knives Forum 3 04-03-2015 05:27 PM
Heiser sheath SteveM Randall Knives Forum 8 08-30-2005 04:38 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:07 AM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved