First Try At Detail Filing

[Ray Rogers]

Carl,

Yup, I know at least one smith who gets his blades very close to finished dimensions with his hammer. My hat is off to all who can manage that. But, more than a few Newbies seem to think that when a blade is forged there is no longer any need for stock removal and for most - at least at first - that's just not likely to be true. Even when the blade is perfectly formed there is still scale or discoloration to deal with and the same skills with a grinder will apply to that little clean up as are required to remove stock. Besides, he may want to do a hollow grind some day or a blade that isn't a full flat grind. Even a master smith would be challenged to do those things without at least a little help from his grinder.

I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't want to see Rockhound skip over his grinding skills thinking that he won't need to be concerned about it because he plans to forge at some point in the future...

[rockhound]

Originally Posted by Crex

Rockhound
Ray and I approach things from different directions and experiences. Ray gives excellent advice here and shares his knowledge freely as most of us try to. Sometimes our subtle biases sneak out and I apologize if I have caused you any confusion. Find what works for you and have fun with it.

I completely understand that there are different methods, techniques, and processes. I like to be exposed to as much of it as possible for learning purposes. I can only appreciate what you and Ray have brought to the table in this discussion... and appreciate it I do! I also appreciate multiple perspectives, which is a great thing about discussion boards like this.
On a side note... this is kind of a "shoe's on the other foot" thing for me as I'm normally one of the guys helping newbs on the flyfishing or mining forums. Both humbling (in a good way) and fun from this side of the pasture.

[Eli Jensen]

Just my $.02, I like to do my filework post HT. If I do it preHT, I'd have to go back and clean up the scale in there, by doing it after, I eliminate a lot of work. I do edge quenches so most of the spine is still pretty soft anyways.

On hardened steel I like to use diamond files from:

http://www.lopacki.com/files/

and chainsaw files as well.

I never ever use a dremel for file work. If you have the right file for the job it should go quick enough. Dremels are sloppy and a recipe for disaster.

[rockhound]

Eli,
Thanks for the diamond file advice and link. I own a set of lap files but they are committed to stone work and I actually hadn't really thought about putting them to steel... BUT.... I will order a separate set and give them a twirl on my next knife.
Since I've done my practice and first-knife file work post-HT, I need to try pre-HT filing on my next build to see what it's like. I really want to have a go at it with the diamond files now too! I have used the Dremel to start a tiny notch for the files where my marks are but that's it. I enjoy the file work for finishing.
Thanks!

[Crex]

"Dremels are sloppy and a recipe for disaster."
Dremels are just tools same as hammers....it's the skill of the user that puts the unwanted dents in hot steel, not the hammer.

[metal99]

Originally Posted by Crex

"Dremels are sloppy and a recipe for disaster."
Dremels are just tools same as hammers....it's the skill of the user that puts the unwanted dents in hot steel, not the hammer.

Agreed, I have seen some really detailed carvings that were done with a dremel.

After I did the heat treat on my knife I just took some scotch brite to the file work and it cleaned up fairly well. I have also read that vinager takes the scale off but I haven't tried it.

[EdStreet]

Sorry, I just had to throw a wrench into the machinery here for a minute and point a few things out.

What type of files are you using? I am guessing a round file and a 3 square file ?



Few files you may want to consider to make good interesting patterns.
square file
knife file
pippin file
slitting file
half round file
crossing file
oval file
barrette file
checkering file is the same as a mill file but parallel lines.

[EdStreet]

The other thing is uniformity and even cuttings. Try something like this

[rockhound]

BlackNet,
Thanks! The chainsaw sharpener makes perfect sense and will definitely help!
You were right on the files I used for the vine pattern.
Since the practice piece I pictured... I did another vine pattern on the top and rear tang of the knife I am currently building (pictured below). This steel was much harder to work but I got through it.
I used a 'round' and a 'half-round' primarily. For touch-up and cleanup I used a tiny 'round' and a 'knife' file on this one.
Today I'm trying to drill through the steel (440C heat-treated to 56-58 RC) and really struggling. I'm using a 3/32" Cobalt bit, drill press, and oil.... any suggestions?

I took this pic before final touch-up, still rough in this image.

[EdStreet]

Drilling tempered steel? There is only one thing that will work. Carbide Flute bit. The best overall solution is to drill the hole BEFORE treating If you are boring out an existing hole then you need a spade bit, if it's a new hole then a flute bit. Spade bits will hold up better than flute bits but not much.

Hope you are sitting down to.

MSC Direct


Enco

The #1 problem with these bits is they break. You look at them wrong they will break. They will drill thru tempered steel like hot butter but any force in the wrong direction or to much force and they shatter. They are VERY brittle and at $20+ per bit that makes a very costly mistake.

As for the files goes I picked up several flavors here They have a good selection and variety, good quality stuff to. Most places you will never see things other than bastard cut let alone stuff like #2, #4 or #6. FYI that's smoothness of cut, think of it like sandpaper

[Crex]

Trouble with file work.......one tends to get a bit ambitious with design, then wonders a third of the way through....what the heck was I thinking?
What BlackNet said on the drilling. You can also ream out a predrilled with a diamond, but drilling a fresh hole with one is no fun. Doesn't cut like stone.

[rockhound]

I am officially cured of trying to drill tempered steel. I never made it through, sigh. I thought that Cobalt would do it, but not even close. I was trying to drill through my scales at the same time and didn't think it would be a big deal... WRONG. Wound up busting the scales in the process and barely made a scratch in the tempered. Now in damage-control mode. I've removed the scales and also the damaged steel (slightly altering the blank design).
I have learned that my handle design was flawed in the first place... as seen in the image below. I learn much from mistakes and am glad to have made a few so far, that is what I expected from the process. I'm working on stabilized Maple scales for my do-over now.

I was attempting to drill a hole for a smaller rivet to add strength here... seemed simple enough.


That didn't go so well.... lol

[EdStreet]

That is dangerously close to the cutting edge. Other thing is the handle area in that point is very thin so that would imply some guard type material, say metal with a pin.

Try not to get caught up on all the fancy coatings and other BS marketing ploys. I am not saying that cobalt bits are bad but in many cases just simply not needed. Here let me show you.

Cutting steel in slow motion magnified

One would be led to believe the special coatings would cut 'better' but the video speaks for itself.

I also have to ask, what type of EPOXY are you using on this?

[rockhound]

That vid was cool, thanks!
I have choked-back my new handle design to a much simpler shape which will lend itself to better durability and functionality.

Epoxy was another lesson I learned. I had used Flex-Coat Rod Building Epoxy for the handle pictured above. This is the same epoxy I use to attach reel seats to flyrods and had great success. Upon disassembling the knife... I realized that it was the wrong epoxy for this job. It's holding strength was excellent for the wood but very poor adhesion to metal.
This fact prompted me to research epoxies for knife-building. Of course there are MANY opinions on which epoxies work the best. I know that a few of the Loctite epoxies tested very well along with Gorilla, Acaraglas, and a few others. I'm now aware of the nuances of expanding epoxies, bubbling issues, etc, of the various brands and applications.
I will be using two different epoxies for this 'rebuild'.
The scales will be getting Gorilla 5 Minute Epoxy.
The file-work filler will be Mirror Coat System Three with their proprietary/compatible pigment (black in this case) which is added to the resin (part A) prior to mixing. I've had excellent results with Mirror Coat systems on various art projects and know the product well. It should work very well for the file-work filler.... but certainly always open to suggestion.
Here's a link to the System Three products (expensive, but very good): http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/MirrorCoat-c13.htm

[Eli Jensen]

Originally Posted by Crex
"Dremels are sloppy and a recipe for disaster."
Dremels are just tools same as hammers....it's the skill of the user that puts the unwanted dents in hot steel, not the hammer.

Then I should rephrase:

Dremels, in my opinion, are just sloppy tools when used for detailed filework compared to hand files and, again in my opinion, are much less suited to those not experienced in high speed rotary tools for detail work.