Forge is a going. Take a look

[squigly1965]

Glad to hear it can used. I just wasn't sure how you were saying what you were saying. I got lost in translation I guess.
Yea I didn't mean to imply that I would heat it up to 300˚F. I just meant that if I was quenching knives. Whether I should stop and let I cool once it gets to 300˚F. Or what would be a good cut off temp to stop at?

and no, Gallons of flaming oil would not be cool

[squigly1965]

Sorry Ray i got you and Nathan mixed up on the oil comment

Either way I wasn't sure as to the use of New versus Old oil. But now I do, thanks

and thanks Bill

[Crex]

I would like to add one caution on using motor or tranny oils.......you don't know what additives are in them and what the resulting fumes from heating may do to your lungs/body. Ventilate very well and don't stand in the smoke! Actually that goes for any quench, safety wise.
For cheap good veg. oil find some one that just fried a turkey for the holidays. Most use peanut oil, which will work quite well. Be yours for the asking. Local bruger burners are mostly using canola or corn oils and again.....your's for the asking. Just run it through some cheese cloth to get the chunks out.
As Ray said, you get the oil up to 300 and you are looking at some real shop excitment sooner or later, plus you won't get the correct cooling effect of your quench resulting in a poorly done blade.

[squigly1965]

Nobody I know did the deep fried turkey thing this year. Didn't think of the burger joints. I plan on doing the quenching outside but will use a respirator anyway. I stopped smoking a couple years ago don't need to start again. LOL

I still need the thermometer for the Oven and a Metal Bucket. I'm gonna go with the Motor Oil. It's pretty cheap and easy.

I'm getting all excited

[NJStricker]

Check out the pots and pans at the thrift store. A big pot cost me $2. When I'm only heat treating one or 2 blades, I use an old loaf pan--50 cents.

[squigly1965]

Okey Dokey peoples
I hardened the steel Only had a flare up on the last one. the knife with the gut-hook. Other than that, just some smoke. I let them sit in the forge once they got non-magnetic about 10 minutes each. to make sure they uniformly heated

They are in the toaster oven as we speak. It was only about 15˚F off according to the cookie thermometer. And, it seems to hold pretty steady. I was thinking though next time to wrap a welding blanket around it for better insulation. But thats probably not the best of ideas. Maybe once I get some Inswool or the like. I'll pull it apart and insulate the oven chamber only.

Alrighty well I'll be letting you all know what happened when it does


Chris

Well I'm tempering at 450˚F for one hour. This should get me around 60-61 i think.

[squigly1965]

Originally Posted by Armory414

Check out the pots and pans at the thrift store. A big pot cost me $2. When I'm only heat treating one or 2 blades, I use an old loaf pan--50 cents.

Thats a good Idea

I found a metal storage cylinder. It had about a 4" mouth on it and about 11" tall. it worked pretty good. It only held about 1 gallon of oil. and each knife only brought the oil up a couple degrees. I was keeping a close eye on the oil temp being my first time and all. I kept the blade moving around in the oil as well. Trying to keep the vapor jacket from forming.

[Ray Rogers]

Ooooooo-kayeeeee ........... maybe a little bad news here. You let the steel sit in the forge for 10 minutes after reaching non-magnetic. Nope. The idea is to be about 50 degrees above non-magnetic when the blade is removed from the forge. This gives you one or two seconds to get the steel into the oil before the air can cool the blade below non-magnetic. If you leave the steel in the forge for 10 minutes after reaching non-mag then the steel will be at whatever temp your forge is tunning and that's hundreds of degrees beyond non-mag in most cases. Way too hot.

That doesn't mean your steel didn't harden, it probably did, but the molecular conversion will be far from optimal. In other words, the blade will cut and hold an edge but not as well as it could have and it will likely be easier to break than it should be.

Also, I've forgotten which steel you're using but I know it's simple like 1084 or 5160. So, tempering at 450 F isn't going to get you Rc 61. Besides that, you don't want Rc 61 on those types of steels in most cases. Every blade steel has a 'working hardness', which is the hardness at which it will perform best for any given purpose. A general purpose knife made from those steels will perform better over all in the high 50's, say Rc 56 - 59. Thin edges on simple carbon steel blades will chip and crack fairly easily if they get harder than that. BTW, there is a very large difference in hardness with every full step on the Rockwell scale. For example, 59 is 10 times! harder than 58 and 60 is 10 times harder than 59 so even one point can make a huge difference in the durability of a thin edge ........

[squigly1965]

I was probably off some in the temp range. But The first knife I put in and kept adjusting the torch till I just reached non-magnetic. Kept a pretty good Eye on the color made sure it was uniform before I pulled it and dunked in the oil. Kept it moving in small circle for about a minute or so. I actually did this on all of them but the first one took the most adjusting.


And the steel I'm working is O-1. My toaster oven wouldn't get it much softer than 60 because it will only go to 500˚F.
Will tempering a second time help bring the hardness down?

I've found that all design work should be done before hardening of the metal. The handle on the Dagger one was pretty small for my buddies hand so I'm trying to re-engineer it's shape a bit and it's definitely a slow moving process

[Doug Lester]

Dido on what Ray said about the long soak; unless you are using a temperature controled oven with the heat adjusted about 50 degrees above the austinization point you are going to get significant grain growth doing that. Judging by eye that you have an even heat is one thing but color can be misleading in judging temperature; it can be thrown off by ambient light.

According to "The Complete Bladesmith" by Hrisoulas 500 degrees with O-1 should get you a HRC of approximately 57. If you are not using a thermometer in your toaster oven, you need to get one. The setting on the dial tends to go more towards wishfull thinking that what is actually happening. Another thing, this is something I didn't pick up on in any of my general references on bladesmithing, don't exceed 500 degrees on tempering. Between 500-600 degrees you can actually harden the blade; above 600 degrees and you will probably get the steel too soft, except for some of the more complex steels like A2 or D2. Those two CAN be forged but they are not for the beginner as they move slowly under the hammer and can crack if forged too cool.

When you feel that you are ready to get into heat treating a little more in depth, I would suggest "Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metalurgist" by John Verhoeven. It is sort of the Cliff Notes on steel metalurgy. It gives a very good overview of the subject and is set up to aid study. It does cover about a two semester's work in 200 pages, so it's not all inclusive. It does, however, give a good foundation in the subject. It is something to be studied and not read once and set aside. It is a little on the pricy side and can be obtained through Amazon the last I checked.

Keep up the good work. As new as you are, you're doing good to be making a knife that is worth giving away.

Doug Lester

[squigly1965]

In the future I wont let the blades soak. I had read about the need to soak. But understand without good temp control. I could be doing more harm than good.

I was going off a PDF I found that said O-1 is 60 at 500˚F. I'm guessing though that your number is more closer to the what I achieved. My files dont bite very easily but do seem to bite easier than I think they should. Like I would know , right?...LOL
I do have a thermometer in the oven. That part about hardening between 500-600 is good to know. My toaster oven doesn't go that high but still good to know if I get one that does.

I'll keep an eye out for that book at the book stores see if I can get it on sale.

I've found that I wish I would have done more bevel work before I hardened the blades. But they still look pretty good.

Still need to get some finer grit sandpaper. 220 is the finest grit I have. I plan on going to 400 grit. I just keep forgetting while I'm out to pick it up.

[Ray Rogers]

You should temper at least two times but the second temper will not make the steel softer unless you use a higher temperature. For O1, I like 400 or 425 F for one hour, twice. That should put the blade in the Rc 59 range assuming it got hardened properly in the fist place.

Like Doug said, you don't want to get over 500 F with most any carbon steel. Doing so will get you into the 'embrittlement' range for carbon steels and the resulting blade will be far more brittle than you'd want it to be ...

[squigly1965]

400-425 was the temperatur range I was shooting for.

I've filed on the knives some. Is it ok to Temper again. Or am I too late? I tempered Last night about 8pm-ish.

[squigly1965]

Update:

Well My dang Gut-Hook broke off. I figured it was going to. Was hoping it was going to be years down the road. But I guess it's bette now than then really. That way no accidents happen.

The blade still has the big upsweep just the little piece that pointed back broke off. I already re-shaped it and it kind has a fruit picker knife look to it. I'm gonna sharpen it up on the inner edge. I think it can still be utilized as a gut-hook. anyways here's a pic

[Ray Rogers]

If you have already tempered at 500 F then tempering at 400 F now won't do you any good. You can raise the temp on successive cycles but you can't reduce it. Now, you would have to anneal and then HT the blade again to get back to a 400 F temper. This is a good example of why a maker should not try to make multiple blades at one time when he's learning a new HT process - too easy to make a mistake that screws up a lot of blades instead of just one.

Welcome to gut hooks, possibly the silliest item ever attached to a blade. The best of them do work but most of them are pretty useless and just serve to mess up your blade. You might be interested to know that maybe 25 years ago or so one of the major magazines had a picture on the front cover of someone using a Loveless style hunting knife that had a hook on the end of the blade to lift a coffee pot off of a campfire. As I recall, that's all it was intended to do but somebody either thought it was a 'gut hook' or it suggested the idea of the gut hook and a gimmick was born. Same as with the fuller you see in some knives, someone saw it and didn't know what it was but called it a blood groove in order to impress an even more ignorant person. All of that is by way of sharing a little history as I heard it and not to say that I never made a gut hook or a fuller.

What you are learning here - or should be learning - from your current experience is simply this: when you are new to the knife making game and/or when you are working with a new set up you should make small, simple blades and run them through the process until you have good control over each step. After you achieve that control is the time to start making larger and/or more complicated blades ....