forge buying question

[Ray Rogers]

Mine used a MAPP gas torch also. The blower was a battery powered Coleman mattress inflater that a friend gave me. You can see it at http://www.rayrogers.com/miniforge.htm
I built it mainly because I had the blower and wanted to see if it could all be made to work and it did. Still, I agree that something larger is better which is why I built this one http://www.rayrogers.com/forge2.htm

[calharkins]

I want to be able to heat treat a blade 12 inches in length. Can you do a blade that long with one burner on propane? Would stove pipe work for a shell? What diameter stove pipe if it would work? As you can see, lots of questions.

Thanks
Cal

[Ray Rogers]

A stovepipe forge, yes. Propane, yes. One burner, yes. But, not a propane torch - you'd need a real burner. One burner should work but you'd need to allow plenty of time for the forge to heat soak so that the temp would be as evenly distributed as possible.

This should work fine for heat treating and probably for forging. Depending on the burner (Ellis has more than one, I believe) used it might or might not be what you want for welding (as in making damascus).....

[Suicycle]

Two of the forges I am building are 8" or 8.5" dia. I am looking at 1" of wool and something in the bottom for a floor, probbly a hard fire brick. That beind said I should have a 6" dia wide with a slightly smaller height chamber. Still it will be fairly round. I also have a helium tank and a freon tank to join which should give around a 8 inch chamber. I plan on making the length to accomodate two bricks in length for the floor. I figure I can build 3 and sell one and have the other two free and clear.

I think Darren only has one venturi and one forced air burner. I ordered the venturi for the first forge and figured I would play with it a little. The Hybrid burners look tempting too, I may play with one of those later on with one of the larger forges.

Keep in mind at some point you might need or want to reline or coat the inside again. Designing the ends to come off or at least one will make working on it easy.

[Ray Rogers]

Ya, you'll want to re-line the forge every now and then depending on how much it gets used and how you use it. To make that easy, I cast the front plate of my large forge from castable cement. This way, I needed no welding and no screws or bolts. Best of all, the cast front plate never warps and has held up for 4 years so far ....

[calharkins]

Ray, I have an ignorance question. What is castable cement?

[Ray Rogers]

See Darren Ellis' website and look at the forge products. You'll see Mizzou castable refractory cement there. Basically, it's just cement that you mix and cast into whatever shape you need it. The advantage to using a refractory cement is that it doesn't tend to explode when heated to 2000 F like your average hardware store cement will do. Most often, castable refractory is used to make the floor of a large forge or even as a liner to the forge body instead of using wool. The downside to making a completely cast forge is the higher expense, substantially greater weight, and much slower rise to welding temp. The plus side is that once at temp it is very easy (economical) to hold the forge at high temp. For this reason, guys who anticipate very long forging sessions (8 hours plus) will build their forges this way. It's not something I would suggest for you, especially not as a first forge. However, casting the front - and the back plate if necessary - could be convenient for you if you can't weld. If you decide to cast, look at my forge pages to see how the casting can be accomplished...

[calharkins]

Ray, I have found a round forge on Ebay. I think it would be less than I could buy everything and put it together. Take a look at this and see what you think. I want your honest opinion. Anybody else wants to chime in, go ahead.

Thanks
Cal

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280117397168

[Ray Rogers]

Cal,

My concern would be that the burners are mounted straight down into the forge body. This usually means hot spots. Considering that it has two burners and the builder doesn't think it will reach welding temps it strikes me as odd that he made the front door so large. That just lets the heat out.

Anyway, at that price it might be OK but after you get it I think you'll kick yourself. You'll see just how simple they are and know that you could have done better. Aside from that, let's talk about the cost of parts.

The forge body should be free or nearly so. He used an old freon bottle. I'd suggest a length of stove pipe from the hardware store for $20 or less. The wool, another $20. Firebricks, $4 or less each (see Ellis' site), you'd need 4 or less. The burners can cost a lot but my Dirt Simple venturi burners are nearly free and they would be about as effective as the burners on that forge. If you can scavenge a strong blower somewhere or spend another $30 at the surplus outfit that slips my mind at the moment then you could build a forced air burner with a few pipes from the hardware store and one moderately expensive 2" gate valve. With that burner, you'd run circles around that forge and still do no worse that his price and better if you have access to a decent trash pile. I found my large forge body in the woods ....

[Suicycle]

I have heard bad things about those forges. They use a lot more propane and do not get near as hot as most home built designs here and the zoeller site. Ray is on target..... again. My first forge was two pieces of angle iron cut to fit two soft fire bricks. about 5 inches tall and 6 wide. I used the propand torch and disposable cans for it. I took a real good dance and movement to HT longer blades, but I did a 10" by 2" blade for a cutting knife. You really should build and you will have a better product in the long run.

[pipecrafter]

I agree, the materials and such that you need are going to be *WAY* less than the price of that forge. Scavenge, scrounge, and hunt down your main pieces, and the rest will go together really easily.

[Doug Lester]

I have had good experience with this seller but, repeating what has been said above, you can build yourself a forge for less even if you purchase a burner kit. I think the reason that the builder has such a large opening is that he is a general blacksmith and deals with larger pieces of metal and odd shapes.

Doug Lester

[Ray Rogers]

You know, Doug has a very good point there. If you look at Ellis's site, you can see venturi burners for about $50 and a complete forced air burner (less the blower) for $105. With either of these burners you'd need a regulator and hose, available from Ellis for $65 or less depending on which one you chose.

So, even if you were hesitant to build a burner you could buy every thing you need for a forge burner, regulator, and hoses from Ellis for less than $200, maybe even much less. Building a simple forge body is almost a no-brainer so you can definitely do better than the eBay unit. Decide what you plan to do with your forge and then you'll know which of Ellis' components are the best match for the intended use.

Just to give you an idea of how little it takes to make a forge body, here is my description of what might be the minimal welding forge you could build:

1) get a sheet on ceramic wool about 1' x 2' (that's feet, not inches)
2) roll it into a tube so that it measures about 1 foot long and 6" interior diameter
3) secure it with bailing wire
4) coat the interior wit Satanite
5) put fire brick front and rear to hold the heat in
6) stick the burner tube through the wool

You're done, and it would work .......

[calharkins]

Well, I am going to get some stove pipe and get most of the rest of the stuff from Ellis. I am taking my first welding lesson this afternoon. If I can manage to learn to weld then I can put it together a lot easier. You guys are really encouragers.

Thanks
Cal

[Ray Rogers]

Way to go, Cal! Remember though that welding isn't an absolute necessity. Ron Claiborne, who can weld most anything, builds his forges by using 4 long sections of all-thread to sandwich the cylindrical forge body between two metal plates, no welding required. So, if you get the hang of it right away, that's great, but, if not, don't let it put the skids on your project.

Which burner did you decide on?