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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #16  
Old 10-28-2008, 07:09 PM
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Woodchuck Forge Woodchuck Forge is offline
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I did some work for a company that makes blades for saw mills. Most are made of 15n20 Sandvic or Uddeholm steel. But there are always exceptions. I got some from another saw grinder and made some Damascus with it combined with 1080. I went to etch it and no contrast...... That really sucked. I does harden up nice though. I gave most of it away. Also I found out that the teeth on those big bands are not carbide but they are stellite. At least the company that I work with use it. Still Unless you really know really know what you have it is a turkey shoot. If you are really set and want the best possible get it spectrographed. If may cost $100 but you have a lot more than that in replacement steel.


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  #17  
Old 10-28-2008, 08:36 PM
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Well, I'm having fun, I hope I don't overstay my welcome here.

Ray, I followed your instructions: made a "coupon", heated it slowly till non-magnetic, quenched it in oil (canola) that was right at 125 degrees. Put on the safety goggles, clamped it up, used vice grips to snap it. It wasn't easy to break but I wouldn't say it was hard either. I took a file to it and it skated. I took a different file to it and it skated, couldn't mark it at all.

The grain is definitely finer this time around. I took some more photos, first one is after my first water quench, second is after the oil quench.

Water Quench:



Oil Quench:



After reducing the size of the photos I'm not sure you can see difference in the grain. With the photos at full size it's pretty obvious. Any further comments you all have are appreciated.


Mike
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File Type: jpg MysterMetal2.jpg (141.6 KB, 6 views)
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2008, 09:52 PM
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Now clean those up to 400 grit and etch them lets see if they get dark or will shiny when you rub it with some polishing paper or I believe 0000 steel wool will work as well.

I know the ones I have are 15N20 because I checked and they have the stellite tips.


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  #19  
Old 10-28-2008, 10:05 PM
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Mike, when you say etch them, can I use white vinegar, or do I need a stronger acid?
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  #20  
Old 10-29-2008, 02:12 AM
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I use ferric chloride which is PC board etchant. I get it at radio shack. I mix it 3 parts distilled water to 1 part FC. I have not tried vinegar.


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  #21  
Old 10-29-2008, 09:37 AM
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You can use warm vinegar but it will be slower than the ferric chloride Mike suggested. If, after a couple of minutes in the vinegar, the steel is still shiny or close to shiny then you probably have 15N20 or some similar saw steel. If the steel gets very dark gray or even black then it's some other type of spring steel. Either way, the next step is to make a test blade and then torture it to death - do a lot of cutting, chopping, and finally some bending to see what it takes to break it. Doing all that will tell you whether you have good steel for knives. I'm thinking it will work out OK.

Your steel is thin but you have a lot of it. When I had that situation and wanted to make thicker blades I stacked several pieces of the thin steel and forge welded them together to make a thicker bar. Food for thought ...


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  #22  
Old 10-29-2008, 10:15 AM
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Man I'm glad I'm not the only one with saw mill experience around here. That's not embarrassed to admit it that is. Glad to hear from you Chuck.

Mike, I think that's the good stuff! Snapping after water quench tells me all I need to know to put the work into at least one blade and test it. I think after testing you will find it's made a good blade, but I certainly would not be afraid of wasting time on that steel.

I'd do and oil quench just because you don't know for sure what the steel is. If it's a water quench steel you just sacrifice a little hardness and if it's oil quench you get a tough knife with no cracks! I'd temper at 350F first and then if it's too hard you can turn the temp up 25 degrees at a time and temper it further. Use Ray's brass rod edge test to check when the edge is right. It works great.

They've used many kinds of steel in saws over the years. As Mike Turner and Chuck said, the current state of the art is mostly 15N20 or something similar with some L6 and a couple other custom smelts thrown in from what I've read.

Thin keerf 15N20 with stelite teeth is a fairly recent, last 15-20 years, import to the hardwood timber industry of the east. Been used for softwoods out west for years. Since yours is thicker steel and has carbide teeth I kind of doubt that's what it is. But band mill and circle mill saws have historically been made of high/spring grade carbon steel forever. 1068 is about the lowest grade I've every heard of being used successfully. It's probably a custom 10 series steel of some sort though.

Even old circle saws have to be hardened hard enough around the outside edge that the teeth and retainers don't pop out the moment they drive into wood. They only heat treat them to 40 Rc or so, so they're soft enough to be hammered to remove tension and track properly through the cut. That's a science and art all to its self. At that hardness they are still hard enough to be elastic and springy.

At any rate, good luck with the project. Sorry for the unsolicited rambling historical retrospective. This stuff is fun. Can't help it.

It's the really fun part of knife making to me. Innovation!

chiger,
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  #23  
Old 10-29-2008, 05:44 PM
MSWallace MSWallace is offline
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Chiger, thanks for the historical perspective on the blades, good info. I never worked the mill but I spent some time as a bucker and choker setter in S.E. Alaska... it was a long time ago, ended up as a wood butcher instead.

I did the etching test. Sanded to 400 grit, soaked in warm white vinegar for 10 minutes. The metal turned gray. The finest steel wool I had was 000, so I used that on 1/2 the piece and used 1000 grit Silicon Oxide paper on the other half. With about 10 light swipes of each, the steel wool took most of the etch off, the 1000 grit took it all off.

Because it turned gray in the vinegar then the steel isn't 15N20? Here's a couple more pics.

Sanded to 400



Etched with White Vinegar



Etch sanded off



I won't be heading back North for a couple of weeks. I'll get some blades cut out and then make up a test knife. Looking forward to it. Thanks for all the help....Mike
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File Type: jpg Etched3.jpg (63.7 KB, 3 views)
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  #24  
Old 10-29-2008, 08:43 PM
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Do the etch test on some mild steel and compare the two. if the mild shows darker then you probably have 15n20. Worst case is you have 10xx steel that hardens in both water and oil. The oil sample looked better to me, finer grain. Which mill did these come from?? PL?


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  #25  
Old 10-29-2008, 10:05 PM
MSWallace MSWallace is offline
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Chuck, I'll do the test again using a mild steel and the "mystery steel" in the morning and let you all know the results. As to which mill it came from, I don't know but could probably find out. My uncle said he got it from a friend of his from Fort Bragg. The big mill there was Georgia Pacific, they closed in 2002. That would be my best guess, most of the smaller mills were closed before that. Would knowing help identify the steel?

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  #26  
Old 10-30-2008, 09:09 AM
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It will not absolutely ID the steel. I know that most mills in the area got their steel from sequoia saw (who I did some work for). They use Sandvick 15n20. But not knowing how old the material is puts another kink into the works. I just have about 500lbs of band steel from Pacific Lumber Co. It works really well for what I use it for. I knew the purchasing agent there and a few saw filers all confirmed the source steel as 15n20. I have accumulated 1200lbs of new and used band material. The unused was still marked with the sandvick and uddeholm labels so i know what it is. The used material I test to make sure it hardens and provides contrast before putting too much time into it. I have access to all the new band material you might need but the guy wants $4-$6/lb. It is not cheap but it is nice to know what you have.


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  #27  
Old 10-30-2008, 04:20 PM
MSWallace MSWallace is offline
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I've dug around and found what I thought were a couple samples of mild steel. One was an old washer with some rust on it, the other was some clean 1/16" flat stock (with the blue/black finish on it). I sanded both to 400 grit, and sanded the "mystery steel" sample again, and dropped them all in the warm vinegar. The mystery steel turned dark grey again but the other two items hardly turned gray at all. Maybe they weren't mild steel and have more carbon than the mystery steel??

Next I took a Frost's Mora carbon blade, 1095 I think, and dropped it in the warm vinegar. It turned as dark as the mystery steel. Maybe I should give Radio Shack a call and see if they have the ferric chloride etch and start over......

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  #28  
Old 10-30-2008, 05:08 PM
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Mike,
If anything the extra carbon would be in the mystery steel. Higher C turns dark faster. Just wondering if there is any nickle in the mystery steel. You have already shown it probably to be at least 1060 or higher. The nickle would come into play if you decide to make Damascus out of it. It adds a little toughness but not too much more. I think you are at the point of going for making a sample knife and see what you can come up with. Too bad we did not make contact a couple of yrs ago. I used to live in Fortuna until Jun 07. You could have come up and played around with your find. If you ever get up to Salem Or, drop me a line and maybe we can beat on some hot steel.


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  #29  
Old 10-30-2008, 05:25 PM
MSWallace MSWallace is offline
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Hi Chuck,
Thanks for the response. I guess I had it backwards, I was assuming we didn't want it to turn dark. You can imagine my confusion when the Mora blade turned dark..... would nickel content keep it from darkening?

Thanks for the invite to Salem. I'd love to take you up on that. I try to get up to OR a couple of times a year. Made it to the Blade Show in Eugene this year, and my daughter and her family live near Oakland, OR. My wife and I try to get up to see them a couple times a year. Let's stay in touch and I'll let you know when we're making another trip.

I'll be moving forward on getting some blanks cut out and put together a hacker for testing, looking forward to this.

I just checked out your website, your knives are awesome, beautiful work.

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Mike
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  #30  
Old 10-30-2008, 05:29 PM
MSWallace MSWallace is offline
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Quick note..... I contacted Radio Shack locally. They don't have the PCB Etchant Solution in any stores in Northern California. Their website states that is not available online, only at the stores. Maybe they're not carrying it any longer. I did locate some at another Electronics Supply House near by, but don't think I'll be needing it now.... Mike
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