Stupid question from a complete newbie

[DaveL]

CPM is for powdered metal. Very close carbide and a very good steel but it is true you should be able ot get it to 1950 degrees or so. Of course I think this is the way to go, use good steel, get it heat treated and go from there.

[DaveL]

An afterthought, I really do believe in getting knife steel, grinding as best you can, getting a proper heat treat and finishing the knife. I think you will be rewarded far more than can be said by doing this. This is what knifemaker's have done for a long time. Grind to about a .25 thousands edge, go to 220 grit and then heat treat. I think you will be surprised at how well you do with this.

[aczeller]

wow... this is going to be awesome. thanks guys for all the great links and info. as far as hijacking the thread, i have no problems with it... as fas as making the new site, i am available as a... ahem... "consultant" if you will ... if you want to know if it is "dumbed down enough" just ask me. i'm about as green as you can get when it comes to this. I took a look at the jones tutorial. that is a great site, but as someone else said, more pictures and a little more in depth would be nice.

thanks again!

Later,
Andy

[Bob Warner]

Andy,

Welcome aboard. As you can see there is plenty of help here.

Kit knives are a good place to start, just make absolutely sure that everyone you show them to knows they are kits and not your creations. I say this because there is not faster way to loose credibility than to allow someone to believe that you made the kit and then later they find out it is a kit. That has happened to a few people in the past and it is not pleasant.

Ask your questions and try to be specific. It is hard when you are not sure sometime what it is you're asking but try anyway, the people here will guide you into the right question and answer.

I also suggest you don't ask 400 questions in one post, it is way to hard for anyone to answer. Ask one or two in each post.

You are going to like it here.

Remember, there is no hurry. Take your time and make your knives. Many new people get close to finishing a knife and end up hurrying through the very end because they want it done so bad. That is the time you make the mistakes that take a great potential and turn it into a mediocre knife. Only show your best work. I do not like to see in progress photos of a knife unless it is a tutorial. If you have a knife that is rough ground and has things that need cleaned up badly and you show it around, it leaves that image in the minds of the people. When you come back later with a nice knife, they still remember what it used to look like and it can make them think twice about buying it.

Have fun,

Bob

[W. Leavitt]

This forum has a great tutorial page:

http://www.knifenetwork.com/workshop/index.shtml

This page will show you a lot of the operations you need to know and give you some insight into the various ways of making a blade. I started out stock removal because I thought it cost a huge amount of money to be a bladesmith. If you want to really see the low tech/high quality knife crowd, check out the "Outpost" forum, the neotribal guys take a very low tech approach but will show you how awesome knives are possible without electricity. They're kinda like the guys that shoot homemade flat bows compared to guys shooting compound bows.

If you get a high carbon steel you can heat treat it yourself very simply. Get a piece of 1 1/2" black pipe about 18" long,cap one end, you can use duct tape but if you do the taped part has to hang out at least 6' from the forge body. Drill 3/8 holes about 1 1/2" apart for about 12-14" depends on how big the knife is, just make sure the pipe is 6" longer than what you want to heat treat.

I used an old junked out single burner barbeque grill for the forge body, knock a hole in the bottom part of one side of the grill. Push the pipe holes up through the hole, the plugged end goes into the forge body.

I lined the the forge in a V shape with a mixture of charcoal dust, sand and vermiculite (available from the garden section of most big stores) then used high temp chimney mortar to hold it all in place (it comes in tubes for a caulking gun) starting from the bottom I just spread it out using a putty knife, you can use a coffee can top shaped into a spreader if need be.

I took a hair dryer and made a tube out of a carboard box with a lot of duct tape to connect it to the black pipe, you can use duct tape over the air intakes on the side of the hair dryer to control the amount of air flow, kinda like they do in Nascar.

Make a small fire in the bottom with w/e you choose to use, I used to use a couple of pine cones, put a layer of charcoal over the fire, turn the air on low, just enough to get the fire really going on the charcoal, then start adding more charcoal. Look you got a forge now!

You want about 2 or 3" of fire under and the same over the piece you're working. I made a notch in the side of the grille body so I could get the metal in the right spot.

I use store bought steel because one of my teachers pointed out that it's not fair to the customer to sell them something you're not 100% sure of. How are you going to ask $XXX amount of money for something you THINK or HOPE is 5160 or 1095. Not knocking the people that do use reclaimed metals but it's just a comfort thing for me. I know what I'm getting and it's a lot easier to work from barstock than to have to straighten springs, hot cut and draw down a leaf spring, ect ect. Well I guess to be honest, it's more of a laziness thing with me. lol

Knifemakers are some of the greatest people on the planet and work hard to spread their addiction.

Will

[aczeller]

thanks WL for that forge idea. after i get done making the BBQ i'm doing for my parents, they are going to have a spare grill i can use for it.

thanks again everyone for your ideas. i am currently making a knife out of some scrap 1"x1/8" flat stock i ahd laying around, mainly to get used to grinding and shaping. i'm not sure what grade of MS that it is, but it's just free scrap, so i figured it would be good to practice on. if anyone has any ideas on how to ID it other than using a meatl ID gun, let me know. i'll probably practice heat treating it too, but i want to get the "good stuff" for when i make the final product.

Thanks again!

Later,
Andy

[Kibuddha4]

Hey Andy. I just as of the day before yesterday was in your area. Small world huh? If you ever decide to take a trip west on I-80, when you smack into Cheyenne give me a buzz. We will talk about how I suck at knife making. I might also be able to introduce you to Brett Bennett http://www.bennettknives.com/ He is a good guy.

[aczeller]

hey... thanks for the offer K. i appreciate it. i'll be sure to give you a jingle if i am ever out that way!

Later,
Andy

[aczeller]

so i started playing around in the shop the other night, trying to see how the metal reacts to the grinders and sanders. i plan on getting a small forge built in the relatively near future (maybe a month or so?), so i haven't really tried hammering yet. as far as stock removal goes, what are the different ways that you guys use? i have seen some of the specialized sanders out there (not sure of the name... the one with the BIG wheel in front, a tension wheel on a spring, and a motor in the back, 1" wide belt) but don't have the money, nor the justification to buy one right now. does anyone know where i can find the replacement wheels and bearings for one? i know i can make one with a little trial and error for a lot cheaper than the sale price. i have also tried using a 32 grit bench grinder wheel, a 4.5" angle grinder, and a belt sander with fairly good results. they are not perfect, but i know it is due to lack of experience and that is why i need to practice. i guess when all things are considered, i currently have 2 questions...

1.) what is the quickest/most efficient way of removing stock, using one of the previously listed methods? i want to still get a nice finish, but i'm not sure if one is really better than another. is there a safe/industry standardized way of removing stock during the "rough-in" stage(s)? i don't think a 100 grit abrasive works very well, but i'm not sure, thus i ask.

#2.) is it acceptable for the blade, during the shaping process, to be heated due to friction from the abrasive source (grinder/sander)? the way i figure, any heat that is produced during this phase is far surpassed during the heat treat process. if this is true, then the metal will not be affected by the friction heat in the end product. as some one has already said, what happens durring the process isn't neccissarily as important as the finished product. i just want to make sure that the finished product is a safe, quality piece.

Thanks for the help guys!

Later,
Andy

[DaveL]

Bob Ogg ground a lot of knives on a bench grinder and did a good job at that. I don't think a 1 inch belt is the way to go for making knives. Just wait if you want a belt sander and get a two inch from several places, My first was a Wiltoh Square Wheel and it is still out there, You are right in that grinding will not get to hot, but get in the habit of dipping your blades in water as you grind. I mean often. Grinding is a chore to learn but you will if you just try and be patient.

[NJStricker]

First off, you'll get faster results during grinding if you are using steel in its annealed state. If you heat up the steel during grinding it is possible that you will get spots that do not harden properly. Rule of thumb--if it's too hot to hold in your bare hands, it's too hot.

Have you tried a good 14" mill bastard file? It can remove material very quickly. Not as quickly as a belt grinder or bench grinder. But then a person can screw up a lot faster on those as well.

[aczeller]

actually yea, i did use the file a little bit when i was shaping. thanks for reminding me. i found it much easier to make the edge flat with the file, than i did with the grinder and the belt sander. i also noticed, like you said, that it removes material quickly for only being a hand-tool, and that it's slower than the power tools. however, i do not mind taking my time in order to get a quality product out of the process. it was a little hard tho to keep a consistant angle. anybody got any suggestions or ideas? even jigs would be appreciated. i saw that another forum member, or it may have been on another site, was showing how to grind an even edge using a big piece of angle iron (looked like 4x4x3/16 maybe?) as a rest to hold the knife even and true to the belt. does anyone have any jigs or ideas that they would be willing to share?

thanks!

Later,
Andy

[W. Leavitt]

Grinding takes practice. To get an even grind line takes even more practice lol. Read the "raising grind line" thread a few threads below this for tips on how to improve your grinding. Just remember that the the only thing the fancier machine do is allow you to make mistakes faster.

There are plans on the internet on how to construct 2x72 (the knife making standard size) very cheaply. There are some free plans that are available on another knife site but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to cross link to it. You can build most of these KMG clones for about 100-200 bucks plus motor.

The only grinding jig I use on a fixed blade it to tuck my elbows tight to my side.

With limited power tools it might be a easier option for you to become a bladesmith, by forging close to shape you'll cut down on your need for tools like a grinder. My teacher, Dale Baxter, ABS JS, does 80% or more of his work with hammer and file. Most of the work he does using a grinder is handle shaping operations and even then wood rasps are his tool of choice.

The only thing limiting you in creating a knife is your desire to make one, check out the Outpost guys and watch them using a sledgehammer for an anvil while they kneel in the dirt using a hole in the ground for a forge. If you're a knifemaker you'll make knives no matter what tools you have on hand.

Will

[NJStricker]

Andy,

Check out this link: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/sh...hp?tid/763907/

It should give you a little information about a file jig. If you look up "knife making" and "greenpete" on youtube there is a video showing a guy using a similar jig.

I made these three blades last year with hand files, hack saw, and drill:



The middle blade became this knife:

[AcridSaint]

Hey Nathan and everyone - I wanted to chime in for just a moment here, I've done a bit of grinding after heat treating and I have to say, there isn't much difference on a belt grinder. This is especially true of hollow grinds. On a sander or with files, that's obviously not the same beast. Anyways, annealed steel is easier to work with hand tools and easier to cut/drill (no need for diamond and carbide tools), but when it comes to grinding, the belts just don't care.

Heating the steel up during grinding isn't a big deal either, imo, provided the steel isn't already heat treated. While heating past crit can affect the steel, especially if it's not normalized before heat treating, grinding it at 600 or 700 degrees (when you're getting the blade blue) or even higher won't do much of anything because you'll be taking it much higher in the forge or oven when you heat treat.

The caveat there is that if you grind *after* heat treating (which I have taken a great affinity to) then you mustn't get your steel above the temper range, especially when the edge is getting close to final thickness. Grinding with a belt sander or bench grinder after heat treating would be a nightmare, imo, but on a 2x72 it's a breeze. If the steel is hard but not final heat treated, it might be tough, but it won't hurt anything.