Stupid question from a complete newbie

[aczeller]

Hello everyone. my name is Andrew Zeller and am completely green in the area of bladesmithing. i have always held metalworkers in high regard as i see this trade as a dying art. i am currently a welding student trying to get into the metal working/fabrication industry in just about the only way i know how. after being refered here by gentleman on another forum, i have found tons of great information on this site so far. it seems to be very informative, knowedgable, and best of all, professional.

now to my real question. i am currently trying to learn how to make a few knives for gifts to family and friends. i have the basic ideas in my head and a few sketches on paper of what i would like to create, however i am not exactly sure where to start. i know that one of them will be a tactical tanto-blade with a rope handle, another will be a hunter/skinner blade for butchering game, and a few others will be kitchen knives. my main requirement for these knives is that they keep their edge for as long as possible. the usage techniques that they will be used with do not require much, if any, flexibility, but i would like to get a mirror polish on them if possible, or possibly some sort of black-oxide type finish, particularly on the tactical knives.

where should i start? i have been refered to a few supply websites, as well as a very reputable heat-treater whom i plan on working with. my first question (among many) is "what metal to use"? i understand how to layout the pattern to create the basic blank, but i would rather not cut a blank out of 304/304L SS if i should really be using something like a mild or tool steel.

Thanks for any information you have.

Later,
Andy

[TexasJack]

Dying art? Just 'cause no one's making any money doesn't mean the art is dying!! (That's a joke, son.) Metalworking is mentioned in the earliest part of the Bible and is still very much carrying on today. As long as there is one maker passing along the knowledge to another, the art lives.

304 is NOT a knife steel. It's sometimes used for guards, but not blades.

Google Engnath's web site and you'll see a lengthy description of various steels and what their qualities are. (Bob is, unfortunately, dead, but his web site and ideas are still very alive.)

I've gotta tell you that if this wasn't a very civil forum, you would probably been flamed pretty badly for your post. It appears that you think all you have to do is get some steel and cut it out and you'll have professional knives. That's incredibly naive.

But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you're more on the ball than that. I'll just point out that you will get better responses if you ask more specific questions. Maybe post some of your drawings and ask for comments.

Good luck.

[AcridSaint]

Definitely check out Bob Engnath's website (www.engnath.com), it's one of the best out there. Read every sticky and every tutorial in the newbie's forum here. Pick up a book or video (I suggest getting Steve Johson's sub-hilt video from Center Cross) and try to find a maker near you that would let you hang around the shop on a weekend. These are the tools you need to have before you buy anything else, in my opinion.

[ranger1]

Hi Andy,
I would recomend,ATS34 for the stainless knives and 1095 for the carbon steel.Parkerizeing (black oxide)will not take on SS.also I would recomend going with about an 800 grit to 1000 grit finish.Read all you can,start with all the tutorials at the top of the forums.Ask specific questions.Ask alot of them.Be prepared Grasshopper,"The road you plan to travel has no end"but its a fun road.

[aczeller]

Thanks guys. i appreciate the responses.

Jack, sorry if i sounded a bit nieve. i really don't mean to sound that way. i know that there are too many aspects of bladesmithing to ever fully comprehend, but i hope that i can learn a little bit from this forum, as well as looking at as many other sources as possible. in order to better understand the process, i plan on getting a small fixed-blade kit to make before i purchase any raw steel stock.

Acrid and ranger, thanks for your info too. i really appreciate the fact that guys like you folks (professional knife makers) actually give guys like me (someone who has zero knowledge about bladesmithing, but has a huge respect and intrest in it) the time of day, let alone actual useful and helpful information.

I appreciate it gentlemen!

Later,
Andy

[mike koller]

From the Knives 2008 directory....
Charles Jokerst
Charles Marlowe
Chuck Syslo
all of these are in Omaha. Try looking up and talking to some of these people.

There a few people that are naturals at this craft ( I am noy one of them) and can come out of the gates making very nice looking knives, but I would say that most of what you have seen on this and other forums has come from a lot years worth of blood, sweat, tears, hands own trial and error, time and money.

Before I wish you luck there is more thing to consider... This craft is very addictive!!!

Now that you have been warned... Good Luck!!!!!!!!!

[NJStricker]

Hi Andrew,

Welcome to the Knife Network! There are a lot of guys here that will be more than willing to help you through the process, some of whom have already introduced themselves.

We need to ask you a couple of questions first before we can answer some of your questions.

First, if you are a welding student and are becoming familiar with metalworking, what kind of tools do you have access to? Do you have access to a belt grinder typically used by metalworkers (2x60 or 2x72)? If not, do you have access to a sturdy table, bench vice, and files?

TexasJack is right in that it's not just a matter of picking up a piece of barstock and grinding until you have a knife. You have to select the steel, the proper design for the type of cutting you want the knife to do, work on edge geometry, give it proper heat treat, and then finally work on fit and finish.

Steel--do you want high carbon or stainless? Your options for high carbon steels will be the 10XX series of steels with carbon content above 0.5% (1050). Most likely you will want 1080, 1084,or 1095. The last 2 digits tell you the % carbon. There are also 5160 and 52-100 carbon steels, but these are typically used by knife forgers as it isn't often found in barstock less than 1/4" thick. If you want to attempt your own heat treat, you might want to select a carbon steel. For stainless, 440C is the old tried and true steel. More modern stainless steel include ATS-34 or S30V. You will likely need to send these out for heat treat, unless the shop where you are studying has a temperature-controlled furnace.

Design--you've already mentioned the tanto. Traditional point or American-style chisel point? For the hunting knives, do you plan to make a drop point, clip point, or upswept skinner? Full tang or hidden tang? Guard or no guard? Natural materials (wood, stag, leather) for the handle, or synthetic (micarta, G10)? Pins or bolts to attach the handle material? If hidden tang, will you have a pommel? If using antler or bone, will you want to stain the material to give it an aged look? If using wood, will you be better off using wood stabilized with a polymer resin? If using bolsters, will they be square to the handle material, or dovetailed? If full tang, do you need to reduce the weight in the handle to improve the balance of the knife? If you do want to reduce the weight, do you want to taper the tang, or simply drill extra holes in the tang?

Edge geometry--Do you plan to give the knife a hollow grind (concave), flat grind, or convex grind? Will you want a narrow bevel for fine cutting (around 18 degrees) or something wider to withstand some chopping and possibly cutting through bone (around 22 degrees).

Heat treat--If you are making a knife from carbon steels, will it benefit from a differential heat treat, where the spine is left softer than the edge to give the blade a little spring and better resistance to breaking? If you want to build a tanto, will you want to give it a clay coat to obtain a decorative hamon line?

Fit and finish--you mentioned you wanted to give the knives a mirror finish. Will these knives be used hard? If so, then a mirror finish could be difficult to maintain by their owners, and so a satin finish might be just as well. On the other hand, a stainless blade brought to a mirror finish with a bead-blasted finish on the ricasso and flats might give an interesting appearance. Do you plan to try any decorative file work? If using carbon steel, would an acid etch give a nice appearance, especially where you want to show a hamon or quench line?

Here is another link to Bob Engnath's website: http://www.engnath.com/public/manframe.htm He has different topics linked on the left side of the page.

There is even a page of different designs that you might consider for your own knives here: http://www.engnath.com/public/drwframe.htm

And here are even more knife designs from the late Lloyd Harding: http://hurleyknives.com/lloydgallery.html\

Don't be afraid to ask questions, and keep us posted with your progress!

Nathan

[DaveRuhlig]

Andy-
You're right where all of us were at some point - for me, not that long ago. Listen to the advice you've been given, it's very sound. Like Andy (ranger1) said ATS34 or 440C are good stainless steels and 1095 or O1 are good carbon steel for you to start off with. The major benefit of carbon steels for a newbie is that you can probably heat treat them yourself.

I just finished a tanto for a friend that left for Iraq yesterday. I think it's similiar to what you mentioned above so I thought I'd post a pic. It's made of o-1 steel, wrapped with 550 cord (paracord) and coated with a bake on finish called GunKote. The nice thing about tantos for newbies is that there's no curve to grind.
-Dave

[NJStricker]

Originally Posted by aczeller

Thanks guys. i appreciate the responses.

Jack, sorry if i sounded a bit nieve. i really don't mean to sound that way. i know that there are too many aspects of bladesmithing to ever fully comprehend, but i hope that i can learn a little bit from this forum, as well as looking at as many other sources as possible. in order to better understand the process, i plan on getting a small fixed-blade kit to make before i purchase any raw steel stock.

Acrid and ranger, thanks for your info too. i really appreciate the fact that guys like you folks (professional knife makers) actually give guys like me (someone who has zero knowledge about bladesmithing, but has a huge respect and intrest in it) the time of day, let alone actual useful and helpful information.

I appreciate it gentlemen!

Later,
Andy

If you are going to try out some kit knives first, check out the carbon steel knives under the J. Russell Green River brand. There are several styles to choose from, they are inexpensive (usually $15 and under), and they are designs that go back 100 years or more. They are sold by Texas Knife Supply, Jantz, and others. While you are looking for blades and other knifemaking materials, you might as well pick up a few catalogs from the different suppliers as well.

[Kencornett]

Ok, here we go! First why buy steel, when it can be goten free from springs? Not old used springs, but new springs. Look in the phone book every town of over 15,000 or so should have a spring shop. If you ask nicely and tell them what you are planning to do they might GIVE you the left overs! Free, new steel. either 5160, 1084..or rarely some wierd alloy that wont harden. they will have the specs at the spring shop. plus with 5160 if you have access to a oxy/acy torch you can do your own heat treating. same with the 1084 and a few others, just a heck of a lot easier with 5160.

Second, yes it will help to have a grinder. (benchgrinder, beltgrinder, etc etc.) i have the whole get up from a custom 2 x 72 to a el cheapo 4 x 36 belt grinder(yeah ray if ya read this i got my shop back from the ex!!) but i dont use them because i have learned that a good sharp file will do more in the right hands than a high powered grinder will in the wrong hands. if you want a shiney finish llok up Don Fogg i use his method of polishing. i use a bar with sheet abrasives glued to it then start sanding the blade while it is a vice. take it to bout 800 for a worker, if it has a hamon then to about 2000. is it hard work #### skippy it is! my hands cramp for the rest of the night! but it was worth it! nothing worthwhile is fast or free!

third, get a book! 50$ knife shop by wayne goddard, the complete bladesmith by dr jim hrisoulis, there is one by david boye that is pretty good and cheap to. get a video or two! there is a good one on how to make a knife with no power tool and pretty much free by tim lively.

also i think you should get a kit or two of the style knives you want to make. and put them together. just to see how they are constructed, nothing wrong with that alot of makers started out just that way themselves. and as they said above time n the shop of another maker will open your eyes more than anything else!and remember the great knives you see comes from long hard earned experience. if a person says it was his first knife and it looks great, i bet he either had another knife maker there teaching him or had training in another field that relates well to bladesmithing.

anyways sorry for this long winded rant , i wish you well in this endevor

God Bless
Kenneth

Oh and i saw you were a student, dont let being young hold you back in this hobby, field whatever you wanna call it. i have a friend he is 18 i taught him a few pointers. mainly just let him hang out from time to time. he now is makeing damascus and san mai!

[aczeller]

This is probably getting old, but thanks again guys! i really dont know how to repay you all.

as far as the type of knife is concerned, i looked up a few differnt types and i think that either a nice little kitchen knife (straight-edged paring knife, if that's what you want to call it) or an American Style Tanto Blade will be what i want to make first. i think it will end up being the Tanto very first mainly due to time and the fact that i already know how to make the handle out of paracord (did similar stuff in "man-scouts" ).

as far as using spring steel Kenneth, are you talking about vehicle leaf springs? just want to clarify before i go make a fool out of myself by asking the wrong place for something they don't have.

Also, i have a feeling that i will be going to a bookstore in the near future now. i don;t usually go to Barnes & Noble or places like that unless i have to, but now that i have found a topic i would like to read about, it will be more of a pleasure to go, rather than a chore.

Dave, that GunKote finish you put on that blade... is that a pre-heat treatment coating, or post? i don't want to have the blade heat treated properly, then mess it all up by re-heating it for a coating.

Thanks!

Later,
Andy

[AcridSaint]

Leaf springs are used by many makers, if you're planning to hammer out knives then this might not be a bad way to go. If you buy used, you may never know what the steel is, if you buy new, maybe they'll have it labeled.

[NJStricker]

Guncote will be applied after heat treat.

The leaf springs will be from an automotive application. If you plan to do stock removal, make sure they are new and unbent. However, you may find them to be on the thick side for a tanto or paring knife.

[DaveL]

For me, forget the leaf springs. Start with a kit, to learn and to enjoy. Then you can get some real steel and the 440C/ATS34 are great/ You can also buy 154 CPM, a powdered steel that heat treats very nice/

[ranger1]

I would agree do a couple of kits first it'll get you used to assembly and fitting the parts and the finishing process.I shy away from unknown steels.First question anyone ask is "What kind of steel is it?".You can purchass 1080 steel 1/4x1.5 x 60" from Admiral steel for $21.66,and you know you have good steel.