Knife Sales & Liability

[TikTock]

Who is to say the person suing didnt acquire it through the second market? Of all the shows ive ever heard of, I have yet to see any lability forms being signed or heard of anyone being sued, though I am sure it happens. What is the difference legally between a guy dropping the tv you just sold him on his foot an a guy dropping the knife you just sold him into his foot? From some of the responses here, I should have liability forms for the dvds i sell on ebay just in case someone tries to eat one and cuts his mouth....

[fitzo]

Are people missing the point here? If you sell knives or jellyrolls and don't have it set up as a business, then you stand to lose your arse if someone does happen to sue you and wins. Plain and simple. Will it happen? Probably not. If it does, the good news is it's your a$$ and not mine.

The argument isn't against selling knives. It's about doing it with enough sense to protect your private possessions and what you will earn in the future in your day job. If you prefer to roll the dice, then by all means do so. I sincerely hope no one ever has any problems.

If the guy you just sold the TV set to drops it on his foot while carrying it out of your house, guess what?? We live in a society where people get sued for stoopid things and lose the legal battle all the time. People stupid enough to put hot coffee in a paper cup between their legs win millions. A gun company has to engrave barrels with "Caution: Dangers are associated with guns. Read manual." Parents sue ATV manufacturers saying they had no idea it would be dangerous for their 5 year old to drive alone. People get sued and lose because the burglar gets shot inside the house when he "didn't even have a gun." Smokers win millions claiming they "had no idea it was hazardous to their health." My wife got sued when a kid rode his bike into her stopped car; the officer and witnesses said it was the kid's fault, but guess what, that didn't stop us from getting sued. If someone DID decide to try and eat your DVD then chokes and sues, do you happily fork over the $5k to pay a lawyer to get you off, even if you win? Doesn't matter that it's stupid and frivilous, you still have to pay the lawyer. And make no mistake that if a lawyer has to defend against a knife instead of a DVD or TV, the task just became MUCH more difficult, especially if it's something you made and sold. It's called "product liability" and a shrewd lawyer will find a way to hold you responsible..

I would ordinarily not even enter a discussion like this because too many people get indignant that there are realities that "just aren't fair". I answered Steve because we have had some discourse in the past. Everyone needs to make their own decisions. The dictate of personal responsibilty says, though, that if it blows up in your face, don't whine.

If it's not obvious that there are potential issues that need to be considered in the decision making process, then there's nothing else I can say. All I'm doing is repeating myself, so I need to shut up.

Hope everyone has a good holiday weekend.

[Andrew Garrett]

Thank you to all for the quality input here. Very helpful to us noobs.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."

[Jacktheknife]

Hey Fitz...
I don't mean any disrespect in any way,
please don't take this wrong, remember {he's from Texas...}
But, why in the world would you try to get a business '#######' for something you are doing in your basement?
It is YOUR ... basement.

If it is not, then I would move out of the city limits.
Or if government crap still is causing you problems,
I would recommend moving to Texas.

Luck
J. Knife

[fitzo]

I don't take that question as any disrespect whatsoever, Jack! It's a reasonable question. The one line answer is that freedom isn't as free as it seems, after all.

Thanks for the invite, Jack, but Texas ain't the place for this cold-weather northern boy! It's 85 here today and that's much too warm for me. As far as moving to the country, that was always our retirement dream. Many folks want a cabin on the lake or a winter home in Florida. We wanted to get the heck away from people and have a biga$$ polebarn we could partition into different shops...LOL. Unfortunately, the way things have worked out it's not going to happen for us. Such is life...

There are multiple reasons for a business #######. As I said, it's used to separate ones private possessions from liabilities. With as many jerks and idiots as there are out there today, I think that's important, and why I got involved in this thread. A lot of people don't agree with me at all; that's ok, I just wanted to present a different viewpoint. The second is that the taxman frowns on hobby-sales past a certain dollar amount; I think it's like $5000. I have no real objection to hiding things from the taxman; I'm a typical American. However, when one gets caught doing that, the penalties are always substantial. The prospect of making special new friends in the Big House has always been a strong deterrent to me, too! Another purpose of the business ####### is to be able to deduct expenses from your sales income; taxation is structured much differently. (As Brent Finnegan said, a smart businessman can arrange things so he pays taxes on only a very small amount of money each year.) I *believe* that on a US1040 you have to claim hobby sales as income but can't deduct that $1000 surface grinder as a "professional expense". I may not have it all 100% accurate anymore. It's been a looong time since I gave a hoot about knives and business and fitz all in the same sentence. (Truth is, when knifemaking went from fun to a second job it lost it's appeal to me. i quit for awhile. Not caring about selling knives returned the interest.)

A small side issue is that a lot of places with stuff I'd want won't sell to citizens, and only to businesses. It also keeps one from having to pay the substantial IL state sales tax.

As far as I know there are no restrictions on what I can make in my basement as long as it's something legal and doesn't bother the neighbors with noise or smells or whatever. I can make knives here 'til the cows come home as long as it's a hobby. There are just zoning laws in the city that prohibit me from operating a light manufacturing business out of my home. If I had a room dedicated to being a tax accountant or some office-type thing like that, that's an ok business to operate out of the home. Cities have zoning laws, even in Texas.... I suppose it's part of what they call the "social contract".

Hope that answers your question, Jack! Have a great day.....

[John T Wylie Jr]

Mike , this subject has been on my mind allot lately. Thanks to you and everyone else for your imput. I am going to determine if setting up a business is the way for me to go , or just to hell with it and just enjoy making and forget selling

great thread !