Filework and epoxy

[David Johansen]

Hi guys, I have a question for you. On my last knife I tried filework and on the areas that I did the filework on the handle, when I glued on the handle slabs I got epoxy all in the filework. It was a real bugger to get clean. I was wondering how you keep the glue out of those areas or if you have a really good way of cleaning it up. Thanks!!!

[Robert Dark]

Carefully put Vaseline or a petroleum based grease on anything you don't want epoxy to stick to. When the epoxy cures, it makes clean-up a lot easier.

Sometimes I use lacquer thinner to clean up the un-cured epoxy if I get it where its not supposed to be. Be aware that lacquer thinner or acetone can also remove color from stained woods, can melt some plastic materials, and is also a health hazard (can you name many things that are not a health hazard?)

I have never tried alchohol to clean un-cured epoxy, but maybe if someone here has, they can chime in.

Hope this helps.

Robert

[AwP]

You can also purposely put epoxy IN the filework. If you fill in all the grooves and make sure there's no air bubbles, then you can sand it down and buff it and the filework shows really well without leaving a rough edge.

[hammerdownnow]

I heard recently acetone absorbs easily thu your skin and accumulates in your liver. they said it does not disipate and just keeps stacking up till it causes liver problems.

[David Johansen]

Thanks Guys!!! That gives me some good things to try!

AWP I agree, I like that with some patterns especially when the epoxy is black. However I don't think it works as well with some patters as other so I wanted to know how to clean it up as well.

[Osprey Guy]

I heard recently acetone absorbs easily thu your skin and accumulates in your liver. they said it does not disipate and just keeps stacking up till it causes liver problems.

I frequently use acetone, so I'd very much like to know where you heard about this...I'm always very interested in issues of safety when it comes to my shop...especially if it's something that effects the air my family is breathing...or their health.

After a 10 page Google Search, I couldn't find anything to support the above quote. After looking over pages of EPA studies, reviews, opinions, etc,... The general consensus was that acetone has low toxicity (it's apparently well known for being only mildly toxic...in fact, it occurs naturally in the body). This is not to suggest it should be swallowed, and/or proper care shouldn't be taken when handling it. It is highly flammable and appropriate care should always be taken to avoid exposure to heat.

We should take care when "reporting" such matters in these forums...people take this sort of stuff very seriously. It's not unlike the widespread (incorrect) belief that MOP dust is toxic...It just ain't so!...and yet I frequently run across "warnings" in these forums cautioning against the toxicity of MOP dust.

Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[David Johansen]

Thanks Osprey Guy!!

I was wondering about that myself as the biggest ingredient in my wifes fingernail polish remover which definitely gets on her skin on a regular basis is acetone. I did not see how they could use that without a big warning on the label if it was toxic.

I had believed the MOP warnings so thanks for passing that on as well.

[Shakudo]

MOP = calcium carbonate
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/C0330.htm

acetone

http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSAcetone.html

[Ray Rogers]

Maybe these will help. Below are sections of two MSDS sheets for Acetone that I got on a quick web search. They are very similar with regard to the hazards that acetone may cause but - significantly - not identical:

3. Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview
--------------------------
DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPOR MAY CAUSE
FLASH FIRE. HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. CAUSES IRRITATION
TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS
SYSTEM.

J.T. Baker SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 1 - Slight
Flammability Rating: 4 - Extreme (Flammable)
Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate
Contact Rating: 1 - Slight
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES; CLASS B
EXTINGUISHER
Storage Color Code: Red (Flammable)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Inhalation of vapors irritates the respiratory tract. May cause coughing, dizziness, dullness, and headache. Higher concentrations can produce central nervous system depression, narcosis, and unconsciousness.

Ingestion:
Swallowing small amounts is not likely to produce harmful effects. Ingestion of larger amounts may produce abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting. Aspiration into lungs can produce severe lung damage and is a medical emergency. Other symptoms are expected to parallel inhalation.

Skin Contact:
Irritating due to defatting action on skin. Causes redness, pain, drying and cracking of the skin.

Eye Contact:
Vapors are irritating to the eyes. Splashes may cause severe irritation, with stinging, tearing, redness and pain.

Chronic Exposure:
Prolonged or repeated skin contact may produce severe irritation or dermatitis.

Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Use of alcoholic beverages enhances toxic effects. Exposure may increase the toxic potential of chlorinated hydrocarbons, such as chloroform, trichloroethane.
********************************************

EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE
VAPORS MAY BE IRRITATING TO SKIN, EYES, NOSE AND THROAT.
INHALATION OF VAPORS MAY CAUSE NAUSEA, VOMITING, HEADACHE, OR LOSS OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
LIQUID MAY CAUSE PERMANENT EYE DAMAGE.
CONTACT WITH SKIN HAS A DEFATTING EFFECT, CAUSING DRYING AND IRRITATION.
INGESTION MAY CAUSE NAUSEA, VOMITING, HEADACHES, DIZZINESS, GASTROINTESTINAL IRRITATION.
CHRONIC EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE MAY INCLUDE KIDNEY AND/OR LIVER DAMAGE.

TARGET ORGANS
RESPIRATORY SYSTEM, SKIN

MEDICAL CONDITIONS GENERALLY AGGRAVATED BY EXPOSURE
NONE IDENTIFIED

ROUTES OF ENTRY
INHALATION, INGESTION, EYE CONTACT, SKIN CONTACT

****************************************

Notice that the first one metions possible damage to the central nervous system while the second one seems less strident on this point. On the other hand, the second one specifically mentions kidney damage which is not mentioned at all in the first one. Of course, a lot of what both are saying is dependant on 'over exposure' and it would be difficult for us to know when we are over exposed. One thing is apparent from these sheets though and that is, nail polish notwithstanding, acetone is not your friend. I would imagine that different people will react at different rates to acetone just as we do to cigarette smoke and cocobolo wood dust. But, when an MSDS sheet mentions central nervous system damage and kidney damage for any reason and for any level of exposure I think we would all be well advised to over compensate on the side of safety. Wear your resiprator, use it in ventilated areas, and keep it off your skin......

[jonwelder]

Thanks guys for the info on acetone,, I always wondered about the fingernail polish remover too!!! I credit Audra Draper, (first woman Master bladesmith) for teaching me this: WD-40 also removes smudges of epoxy glue befor it "sets" where you don't want it! ---jon

[DC KNIVES]

I use packaged alcohol swabs.They are cheap and clean epoxy right off.Also good for leather dyes.Dave

[Crex]

Dennis,
On MOP, it's not the calcium carbonate that damages your lungs per say, but the form in which it enters and resides in your lung tissue. The effects are for all practical purposes the same as ground glass. Ground glass is not toxic but it will destroy your lungs. Max nix!
Dead is dead.
Basically all organics and inorganics in dust form don't belong in your lungs. That's why your nose is full of fine hair and sticky mucous, to protect your lungs. Dust is dust and lungs is lungs, you can survive without the dust!

[Osprey Guy]

Point well taken Carl...

While MOP dust is not toxic (as in poisonous...according to Webster's dictionary), it can still be hazardous nonetheless. I believe my position on wearing a respirator in the shop whenever one is generating any form of dust (whether it's MOP, bone, ivory, wood, metal, CF, G-10, etc) has been well established.

Perhaps equally important to point out here...
We so frequesntly hear those warnings about MOP, but seldom about the highly carcinogenic properties of so many of the exotic woods (just to offer one example of the dangers of dust in the knifemakers shop)...How often do we hear dire warnings about Cocobolo dust?...

WEAR YOUR RESPIRATOR!


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Phydeaux]

Years ago my dad gave me a book about wood. One of the things it did mention about cocobola is that it is the same family as poision ivy. The book also gave warning about the dust and mentioned that some people can get a skin reaction from handling it. So please do be careful. If I play with it too much my skin tends to peel a little. It is also so dense that it will sink in water (or dihydorgin monoxide as my daughter calls it).

Ric

[Crex]

Not a point of contention, Dennis, just a point of observation. You are so right about the use of a respirator with proper filters. I wonder if all these stabilized wood users have the right filters on their respirators. The fumes from grinding the acrylics used in stabilization are much more deadly than any dust. In grinding them, if you smelling it, your inhaling it!
(One reason I quit using stabilized wood, but not strongest.)

Ric -I wasn't aware cocabola was in the same family as posion ivy. Could you please reference the book that stated this. I would be very interested in the research supporting this claim. I did some fairly indepth studies on posion ivy while in college.