Signing your work?

[J. Hartt]

I was looking for an answer to this question and found a thread from May'02, but there wasn't a clear winner.
The thread concerned signing your name or mark to a kit that you have put your blood, sweat, tears, and lots of time and passion into. Is signing something that you 'completed' acceptable???
I know that these are 'kits' that I did not make, however I DID make the final product, a knife that I am proud to call mine,BUT, I did not make the kit.
To the best of my knowledge, Darrel Ralph made the 'kits'.
He made them for people like you and me to complete or 'make'.
A good friend of mine who has been making knives for the past 20 years says that there is nothing wrong wiht putting my name on a kit that I finnished. My opinion is that if you did not make 'it' then 'it' is not really yours, you only purchased it. All the fixed knives that I make start from scratch. I purchase the steel, brass, handle material, pay for heat treating, etc, ergo they are mine with my name on them. some get sold, some are gifts.
Any feedback would help to clear up my concern.
BTW, I'm not into forgery or fraud, but I did make a knife from all these pieces.

[Martyn]

This has been discussed many times before. The simple answer is signing the blade of a kit knife is unacceptable regardless of the level of work you have put into finishing it off.

If you grind, shape and manufacture the parts yourself, sign it, if you've assembled someone elses parts, dont sign it - because you didn't make it, so it's not yours to sign.

By implication, a makers mark is just that - the mark of the person who *made* the knife.

It may sound tough, but it's the only ethical way. Designing and making a folder from scratch is way harder than simply grinding up a fixed blade.

If you have ground/forged your own knife from scratch, it doesnt matter how rough it may be, it's yours and you have the absolute right to mark it. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to acknowlege finishing the knife, without making a pretence at manufacture.

Scrimmers and engravers do sign their work even when they have not made the kniffe, but the convention is such that it is understood that they are signing their artwork, not claiming manufacture of the blade. There is no set convention (as yet) for skilled kit makers.

It's a tough one for sure.

But...

You answered your own question. You said you did not feel comfortable with signing something you did not fully make. That's exactly how I feel too. That's your answer. It's an ethic, let your concience be your guide.

EDIT: Just to add, I've made up a number of fixed blade kits, some of the steel was custom forged to my spec by a member of these forums. But they have all been unmarked, no matter how nicely finished. Just now I have finished my first ever grind a 6" fixed blade, and have also marked my first blade. I am hugely proud of that achievement.

[Bob Sigmon]

Jeff,

I think that it would be correct to sign or mark the knife with "Customized by", that way there is no question that you did not make the knife but embellished it.

In the end it is your choice, but with the few kits that I have sold, the customers wanted it marked showing who had customized the knife.

Bob Sigmon

[Martyn]

I'd go with that Bob, like many have said before, it boils down to honesty.

If the mark is just a name which looks like a makers mark and leads the prospective buyer to think it is in fact a makers mark, that is dishonest. But if it's by request, or says "customised by" then there is no ambiguity. Everthing is above board and rosey

[Osprey Guy]

I spoke to a local "old timer" about this subject awhile back. He has been the past president of two local knife clubs and has been making knives for over 30 years. He said that while it is improper for someone who did not make the blade to put his signature on it, it is perfectly acceptable for the person who has embellished or customized that knife to put their initials on the blade.

He also felt that, much like the engravers and scrimshanders you mentioned, as we put a huge amount of effort into these handles (probably putting in more time than most of the guys who make the blades), we are well within our rights to put our names somewhere on the handle. Since I normally grind and filework a backspine, I sign my name (with an inexpensive dremel engraver) underneath the spine, so that you can look up inside the knife handle and see my name.

In my opinion, 20 -40 hours of work gives me the right to put my mark somewhere on that handle.

Desnnis

Yeah Baby!

PS. If all else fails, I heartily endorse Bob's idea of "Customized by" when and where space permits.

[SharpByCoop]

Sounds right to me, too. I'm just like Jeff (and ALL of us for that matter), in that I spend plenty of time personalizing the work, and really deserve some sort of accreditation ($50 word).

But...once again, to simply sign it in the convention of handmade knives is not playing fair. Just this weekend I spotted a knifemaker whose wife (Susan...?) had a couple of *very* well done EV4N-1's on the table. With her name in script etched on the blade. I handled it and told her I was pretty impressed with the workmanship and showed her my new GSX dagger. But, purposely, I didn't mention the 'kit' word hoping she (or her husband) would cue up. Nada. Just a smile and a thanks.

I didn't want to 'test' them further, but I wonder just how disclosing they may have been to someone who didn't recognize the style.

Anyway, as I continue to build my skills, I may certainly mark a blade--but only with some qualifier. Right now I sign them somewhere inside with a buzz engraver.

Coop

[Martyn]

Absolutely Coop, it's about conveying the truth, especially to those uninitiated in the ways of the blade. I really dont think it's honest to pass off a kit knife like the way you said you saw it being done - it's wrong, plain and simple.

I have no doubt, that in time you and Dennis will become great makers. Grinding your own blades, machining the frames - it's not that far away from reality now. The work you have done on these folders is stunning, and it most certainly is recognised, in here and thats where it counts. You guys are very well thought of for the work you do with these kits. BUT... Imagine in 10 years, when your folders are made from scratch and fetching $1000's - and an old DR kit, with your name on it *could* come back to haunt you.

I know finishing these kits to the standard that you and Dennis do, takes an age - but also imagine how mush longer they would take if you had to build the frames and grind the blades from stock. When I see a mark on a blade, that is what I'm lead to belive has been done. I think the people buying these kits, with makers marks (other than DR) on the blade from these knife shows, are being duped. I'd even go so far as to say it's fraudulent, unless the situation is made expressley clear to the buyer. I'm hearing a lot of stories about these kits being misrepresented by unscrupulous types, maybe Darrell should consider stamping the blades with his own mark - I dunno, but it seems to be a problem.

Originally posted by Osprey Guy
I spoke to a local "old timer" about this subject awhile back. He has been the past president of two local knife clubs and has been making knives for over 30 years. He said that while it is improper for someone who did not make the blade to put his signature on it, it is perfectly acceptable for the person who has embellished or customized that knife to put their initials on the blade.

I'd have to disagree with that Dennis (my opinion alone you understand - I speak for no one but myself). If I see initials on a blade, I automatically assume that they are the makers initials - especially if there is no other makers mark on the blade. Colin KC, for example, marks all his blades made by himself from the ground up, with simply KC! Jon Loose has a styalised JL stamp etc. A makers mark, is whatever the maker wants it to be, whether full signature, initials or a simple logo.

I understand you have put a lot of work into them. I have made a couple of Osborn damascus fixed blades myself, made the guards from stock, ground the spacers and handles, made my own mosaic pins etc. I've also finished up TKS blanks in the same manner. But I havent marked them at all, because I didnt make the blade. I think when we choose to make kits, be they DR folders, blanks from TKS or even custom spec Osborn damascus, we know what we are undertaking, we do it because we enjoy it and because it's a learning experience, that takes us a step closer to making our own. I think we know the score when we buy the kits. I dont think we can lay any claim to these kits other than "cutomised by" or "finished by".

I understand it's a difficult situation, especially if one is selling the finished kits. Buyers like to see some kind of mark to show originality and uniqueness, but I think there is a line that we must be careful not to cross.

Just my opinion.

[Osprey Guy]

Martyn-

Let's try going at this a little differently...

Last week I landed a customizing job from the asst. manager of a local store. He owns a gorgeous, limited edition William/Henry but of course doesn't wish to carry it to work. Instead he wants to use one of their new "entry-level" models which are made in Japan rather than the WH shop in California. It comes with a rather boring, mismatched set of bocote scales. He engaged me to redo the scales with something that he would enjoy showing off at work (and by the way I'm being paid about twice what the knife costs at retail).

I've finished the handle and per agreement will now be adding a stainless backspine which I will filework, most likely continuing onto the blade. I may filework the liners as well. The store's manager owns a similar WH and having seen my work on this knife, has asked me to customize his as well (BTW-for even more money...Wait'll you see what I've got planned for his!).

Both of these gentlemen are excited about my ability and fully believing that someday a knife customized by Dennis Greenbaum will be of value, they wish me to put some sort of identification on the knife indicating that it was done by yours truly.

What would you suggest? With a completely redone handle, and fileworked blade, liners, and an added fileworked spine, should I be entitled to put my mark somewhere on that knife?

Here's a pic of the finished handle. It's stabilized, spalted, burled maple and black ebony spacer along with nickel/silver fileworked spacer:




Dennis

Yeah Baby!

[Martyn]

Dennis, in that case, mark it - but I'm assuming that the blade already has a WH mark on it - no?

It's a question of not being ambiguous. The DR folders are unmarked. If you initial the blade, you'll make it look like the whole knife was made by you.

Like with scrimmed knives, they are signed by the scrimmer - fine, but the blade also carries a makers mark. No one is in any doubt as to who did what.

You may be explicit in describing the work done, to your customers, but what about resale? How many hands would the knife pass through, before "customised by Dennis" became "made by Dennis".

There is a dangerous precident here. If you initial the DR folders, then why shouldn't everyone do it?

You could have a situation where someone simply assembled the kit, gave it a quick sand and stamped their initials on the blade. Where do you draw the line? The number of hours put into the kit? The finished quality? Who decides what is OK to initial and what isn't?

All I'm saying is, I think it's unethical to mark a knife in such a way as to draw a question mark over it's origin.

Again, just my opinion.

[Varjeal]

I believe that if you assemble and customize a knife, even a "kit" knife, you have the right to have your mark on it. On the blade? Perhaps not. If Darrel Ralph had his mark on one side I don't know that I'd feel bad about putting mine on the other. After all, if I had not assembled and customized the knife myself, it wouldn't have been much of a knife, would it?

Regardless, I plan on marking my knives to show that they have been customized. I like the idea of marking it somewhere inside where it can be seen, and this is the route I will take. I personally have no problem with identifying the true "maker" of the blade, but I also insist on taking the credit for the rest of the work that went in it.

Just a thought.

[Martyn]

If Darrel Ralph were to mark one side of the ricasso, I can se no problem with the customser marking the other.

But at the moment, he doesnt. So that kind of leaves it in the air.

Remember, we are talking about blades that are being marked prior to sale.

To me, it's like a picture. The artist signs the canvas, but no matter how nice the frame, the frame maker never signs the canvas. There are many frames that are much more valuable than the pictures they house, but nevertheless, only the artist signs the canvas. IMO, only the blade maker, has earned the right to mark the blade.

There are many customisers who customise existing blades. You could take a $50 Buck folder, customise the hell out of it, rebuild from the ground up, but it will always be a customised Buck.

[J. Hartt]

WOW!

Martyn, Dennis, Varjeal, Jim, Bob, Thank-you to you all for your input and advice.
I agree that putting my name on the original blade would be wrong.
If i was to make a replacement blade then I would probably mark it.
I think that marking a kit knife as "Customised by....." would by OK , but where on the knife?? If you look at a DDR1 there is enough space on the left bolster for a couple small words.
The DDR2 is very limited due to the knife's size. I haven't made any back spacers for my kits yet, so marking them is out.
got to go I'll be back
Jeff

Sorry< I had to pick-up my girlfriend from work. While driving I thought "what if I marked the blades with 'DDR1 and DDR2' then put my mark or 'customised by...' on the bolster or pocket clip???
I need feedback on this idea.

Thanks Jeff

[SharpByCoop]

Jeff,

Still the jury's out on this. I say sign your name away on the backspine inside. There's nothing wrong with that. Or qualify it somehow on the blade. Don't clutter it up with too much type, or you'll lose the aesthetics, too.

Dennis: I gotta say that is a beautiful job you've done on that knife. Those guys will be quite pleased. I'd sure be proud of that!

Saw a GX6 on ebay last night. No mark, but no qualifier for the kit or Darrell's design. Not the best execution either. I'll keep tabs on it. This is to be expected, especially in the no-holds-barred arena of eBay.

Coop

[Martyn]

Actually Coop, your Jury comment made me think. The subject has been discussed often, but always with the same result. No difinitive answer. I think with all the custom makers in here, many of whom are very prestigious and renowned, we should be able to come up with some sort of CKD "fatwah" on the subject of signing kit knives. I think that whatever becomes the consensus in here, will lead the way for others, so maybe it's important we have an official CKD stand on the matter.

Maybe a poll?

Obviously, people will do exactly as they choose. Once you buy the kit, it becomes your property to do with as you wish, but I think an "official line" would be a good guide for us all. I dont just mean folder kits either, but fixed blades too. We would need to agree on exactly what a kit is - does it include colaboration knives for example? Should they be production knives only, or should we include handmade blades supplied to others to finish? There are a lot of questions. We could include things like dual signing by the blade maker and finisher as one possible option, or if not, then what to sign - what qualifier etc.

Obviously it would be up to the individual to choose whether or not to follow the guidelines, but they may be a very helpful guide.

If the consensus was that it is OK to initial the blades, then it would remove any feelings of caution, and allow builders to do it freely, without feeling like they may be breaking some convention or other. On the other hand, if the consensus was not to initial the blade, it would also end the run of debates on the matter.

I think a poll would put the issue to bed once and for all.

What do you think?

[Colin KC]

I've been a bystander on this one & didn't really have an opinion, until I thought about it, If a maker buys damascus from a smith, he always indicates the smith that forged the damascus, (although, to be fair, not on the blade, mostly the "maker puts his mark on it!)

P'haps, now, in the wake of Knifekits success (& others, including the "unnamed" smiths forging damascus knifeblades that are prevalent on ebay) there is a need for a new category of maker...

...The Customizer!

I'm sure that Dennis & Jim would be happy to be named as some of the premiere "Customizers" of kit knives, just as the many "grinders" & stock removers are happy to be called makers rather than smiths, (& vice versa)

Why not state "Customized by" (Cb) on the blade & let everybody know what this means? (I unnerstand that there are no "knife police", but surely many customizers doing this would eventually create a standard?)

Or am I being too naive?