One of my knives confiscated!

[Frank J Warner]

Originally Posted by Bob Hatfield

I would wait and talk to the officer first.

Of course, that's what we're going to do, if the guy ever comes back on duty. We've always had good relations with the police. They've always been professional, respectful and helpful -- even willing to overlook minor legal issues -- whenever we've dealt with them. We haven't heard this officer's side of the story yet, and we want to do that before jumping to any conclusions.

That said, there are still some troubling aspects about the whole episode. One that I didn't mention is that we live a mere couple of blocks from where the incident took place. It would have been no trouble at all for the deputies to swing by the house, with the boy and the knife, to explain what happened and what our options were. They didn't do that. Yes, it was New Year's Eve, and they were probably busy, but that doesn't excuse their failure to communicate with the parents of a minor about their contact with him and subsequent confiscation of an illegal weapon.

-Frank

[Messinger]

Originally Posted by Bob Hatfield

I also am a former law enforcement officer of 30 years. I would wait and talk to the officer first. I am stating this based on your information. the simple fact is that the boy was in VIOLATION of 653K P.C. (snip)
Bob Hatfield

I dissagree. The knife has a detent, and I assume a thumb-stud. It complies with the law. I respect law-enforcement. There is a history of law-enforcement service in my family. IMHO this was a nice knife, the officer wanted it, and he took it.

The knife was NOT a gravity knife. PC 653K specifies what's a gravity knife and what isn't. It states that "[a gravity knife] does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade. . ."

-Ben

[dsvirsky]

[QUOTE=Bob Hatfield] the simple fact is that the boy was in VIOLATION of 653K P.C. /QUOTE]

No disrespect, but I'll do more than disagree; I'll state flat out that you are wrong. As long as Frank builds his knives with a detent, that knife was not in violation of sec. 653k. Whether or not the officer was familiar with the full text of the law is another question.

Frank, if you're unable to resolve this matter on your own, I suggest contacting Ron (RW) Clark. I don't know if he posts on these forums, but he's been posting over at BFC on this topic lately. In addition to being a knifemaker, Ron is a former Federal LEO who is also an expert witness on the subject.

[battlement]

Well here is another 30 plus L.E. officer and I will throw my two cents in...I am always inclined to give the officer the benefit of the doubt, but as a supervisor of officers in the field I have two concerns. An officer nevers acts on what he thinks; if he errs, he errs on the side of protecting individuals rights and the safety of the public. I know that this kind of thinking in todays world is sometimes a lost art, but that is, never the less, the right way for L.E. people to deal with a situation. Your son had allready demonstrated to the officer that he was not a threat to his, the officers' or anyone elses safety. If the officer "thought" it might be a gravity knife, he should not have confiscated it until he "knew" or had probable cause to believe that he could have charged the boy with illegal posession. What the officer did in fact was take the knife as evidence pending investigation, instead of conducting the investigation and collecting evidence. I also hear no mention of the officer giving the boy a receipt. I know of no jurisdiction where an item of property of obvious value is taken without issuing the person from whom it was taken a receipt, whether or not was taken as evidence or simply for safe keeping. I think the Sheriff, the man the majority of your fellow residents voted into office should be apprised of this situation, regardless of the outcome. He works for you...you hired him.

Dave

[Bob Hatfield]

Gentlemen I do not care if the knife was built with a detent. The penal code is very consise on this issue," any knife with a blade two or more inches, which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, preassure on the handle, FLIP OF THE WRIST is construed as being a switchblade knife. I have seen this statue upheld in several courts and the argument about the knife being designed with a detent to prevent opening unless the stud is used, did not stand up. The courts have come to the conclusion that the knife may have been modified by the user and if it can be open by a flick of the wrist, it is deemed a SWITCHBLADE KNIFE.
So all you knife packers, if your knife can be opened this way, be aware you may get arrested. All the officer has to do is be able to demostrate that the knife is capable of being open by a flick of the wrist. Contact your local D.A. and see what he says, he will be the one to decide if he will prosecute for a folder that was designed and made to open with a stud, but do to modifications or wear will now open by flicking the wrist.

Bob Hatfield

[Frank J Warner]

The deputy contacted us last night with an explanation, and he returned the knife.

He's a young offcier, new on the force. Explained that he could have arrested our boy but chose to confiscate the knife and let the boy go. He was trying to be "a nice guy" because the boy had done nothing else wrong and was clearly not "a problem."

My wife drove down to the station last night and picked up the knife. The officer was polite and friendly, and she let him know she was grateful that he didn't arrest her son on New Year's Eve. She explained that it was a custom knife made specifically for her son and that it simply needed a minor adjustment.

The officer agreed. He pointed out that the knife would be completely legal to carry as long as thumb pressure on the thumb stud was required to START opening the knife. Once the blade is partially open, it's okay if a flip of the wrist completes the process. If we make those modifications to the knife, no other officer would have a legal basis to confiscate it.

All's well that ends well, so sayeth the Bard.

-Frank

[circlepknives]

Glad this one had a happy ending! Not all do. There are a few LEO collectors who use ignorance of the law to build their collection. This Officer while new at the job may have handled to confiscation wrong, but that he resolved it fairly speaks a lot for his character.

[TikTock]

I think the law is pretty absurd on this aspect. "flick of the wrist" is a pretty generic term.

Whose wrist? How hard? ID be willing to bet that almost any knife with any detent will flick open if you get enough centrifugal force going on that blade. If an officer can really flick as hard as he can, and it opens, now its a switchblade?

Ive just never understood how I can press the back of a Chive knife and it flips open like an auto with no other force or movement required, and thats legal, but being required to swing ones whole arm to flick a knife with a detent and succeeding makes it illegal.

For that matter, i am pretty sure if I flicked my .50$ box cutter, the blade would extend. Does that make it a "gravity" knife?

(I still think this original story sounds sketchy, even if when confronted, the guy was upfront...much like when youre purposely walking out of a store carrying something you didnt pay for and a clerk says "hey did you wanna buy that" and you then say "oh...yeah...forgot i had it in my hands"....you both know you were gonna steal it)

[TKC]

I am glad that you got the knife back!!

[dsvirsky]

Originally Posted by Bob Hatfield

I have seen this statue upheld in several courts and the argument about the knife being designed with a detent to prevent opening unless the stud is used, did not stand up. The courts have come to the conclusion that the knife may have been modified by the user and if it can be open by a flick of the wrist, it is deemed a SWITCHBLADE KNIFE.

Bob,
I have no doubt that you are correct with your observations (and certainly, if a knife has been modified to defeat the original purpose of the detent, my arguments don't apply). However, what is happening is that the clear intent of the California legislature is being ignored. As I pointed out in my previous post, Ron Clark has been posting over at BFC about the 653k cases he's been asked to "advise" on. Go over there and read some of what he's posted.

As for me, I'm happy to be in SW Virginia (I grew up in northern CA and both my father and my mother-in-law are retired LEO's).

Frank -- glad to hear that everything worked out in the end.

[hammerdownnow]

Frank, you handled it in the best way for the best possible outcome. Hats off to your son for his maturity in the way he dealt with the situation.

[Messinger]

Originally Posted by Bob Hatfield

Gentlemen I do not care if the knife was built with a detent. The penal code is very consise on this issue," any knife with a blade two or more inches, which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, preassure on the handle, FLIP OF THE WRIST is construed as being a switchblade knife. I have seen this statue upheld in several courts and the argument about the knife being designed with a detent to prevent opening unless the stud is used, did not stand up. The courts have come to the conclusion that the knife may have been modified by the user and if it can be open by a flick of the wrist, it is deemed a SWITCHBLADE KNIFE.

I can pick up ANY production liner-lock or frame-lock folder from the counter of any sporting goods store in the country and if I hold my mouth right, grip that sucker tight and then do my best to crack my arm like a bull-whip popper I can open that knife without touching the blade. Now I might have a sore elbow and wrist afterward, but I guarantee that knife will open. So I guess every one of those knives sold at every glass counter in this country (most states share the same language as the code in question) is illegal and I ought to just go home and pull up the drawbridge because I've had enough. By tomorrow morning even my shoelaces will probably be illegal for some asinine reason or another. I'm a pretty calm fellow, but I get my dander up when a poor law gets a poorer interpretation followed by even poorer case law.

-Ben

[SPryor]

I think much depends on the demeanor of the carrying individual. I carried a large automatic clipped to the outside of my pocket for years, and never had a problem. There were several occasions when a nearby LEO was probably aware, and never said a word. Area probably has a lot to do with that also.

[Andrew Garrett]

This has developed into a facinating debate. Bob may very well be right, but Ben is even more right. I have NEVER picked up a detent folder that I couldn't open without touching the blade.

That being said, I think a definition of 'flick of the wrist' should be posted with this law to exclude the use of the whole arm. If one can open the knife with a flick of the wrist when the arm is ancored say to a table or counter, then it is illegal. If ANY more effort than that is required, then it is not a GRAVITY knife. It is a HIGH-ENERGY CENTRIFUGAL FORCE knife, which is not covered under said law.

Any lawyer worth his salt could win this one.

[Bob Hatfield]

Andrew;
It is a sad case that alot of these laws do not take take in the "Gray areas" while being applied. Alot of times it will hinge on the outlook of the local D.A. alot of these D.A.s are anti-gun and anti-self protection. You can guess the way they will go when one of these cases, like Frank's step-son, comes before them. they will try to prosecute. How many of you are aware that for many-many years in CA. it was a Felony, up to 5 years in prison, for carring a concealed dagger or dirk. but at same time if you were caught carrying a concealed firearm, without a CCW, it was only a misdemeanor. We all know that the firearm is a far more dangeous weapon. they finally, a few years ago, got smart and reversed it.
As for the mention that you can beat the case in court with a good attorney, is very true, but will you have the 5,000 to 10,000 dollars to hire that good attorney and take your chance in a court. This debate could go on and on, but the sad case is that some of our laws are just plain stupid and need to be tossed out or revised. I am just glad that it turned out ok for Frank and his Step-son and the cop used some good sense on judging the boy's character. but if it had been me, I would have taken the boy home and made contact with the parents the night of the incident and save everyone alot of unnneeded worry and anguise.

Bob