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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 12-10-2002, 11:26 AM
Jerry V Jerry V is offline
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Sabatier steel

Hi

I realize this isn't so much a "making" thing...

Recently had a repair job, client has a Sabatier paring knife that they snapped the tip off of. Client wanted me to repoint (opbviously), which I agreed to do. Of course, I didn't want to go directly to the grinder, following the "do the least damage" approach -- and not wanting to overheat the steel at the grinder, thereby drawing temper (yes I know there are ways to grind without drawing temper -- and would have done so if necessary). So -- I started with a file. Understanding that a well tempered piece of steel would file reluctantly (but would file).

Here's my issue...that steel was as soft as butter. Had no problem filing a new profile into the blade. The (carbon steel) blade showed no sign of anyone else attempting to grind it... For those with more experience with the brand, are Sabatier knife blades normally this soft?????
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  #2  
Old 12-10-2002, 12:03 PM
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Mike Hull Mike Hull is offline
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I used to get a lot of "good" kitchen knives at garage sales. Sabatier, Henckles, etc. They had usually been abused, for years.
Bring them home, repair them, and use them.
None of them were in the least hard, compared to a custom knife, with one exception, a "Cobra" from Japan. I got it for $.50cents. When I tried to sharpen it, the worn belt wouldn't touch it. Had to start with fresh belts and no skipped steps. It took me about 15 minutes to put a good edge on that carver. I don't use carving knives a lot, but this was years ago, and I haven't had to resharpen it yet. IMO, most of the others don't live up to their advertising claims, at least as far as quality goes.


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Old 12-10-2002, 01:57 PM
Jerry V Jerry V is offline
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Thanks!

Appreciate the input. This is a good customer...first knife related job, but plenty of general blacksmith work...and I'd hate to have to tell her that someone had ruined her knife before I'd gotten ahold of it. If the steel is usually soft...so much the better.

Now next thing is to make her a custom paring knife Christmas gift, to show her the advantages there...then she'll want to order the whole block...muhahaha!
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Old 12-10-2002, 06:04 PM
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Jerry Oksman Jerry Oksman is offline
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don't forget that most of the "factory" good kitchen knives have more than one line. In some cases the only difference is the handle. Henkels for example makes the same knife with either a ergo plastic handle or the older style wood slab handles. Blade steel is the same.

But there can be a difference in the steel used. I' know that some of these companies ( I can't specifically include Sabatier) that have a forged blade that is much more expensive than the regular line stock removal version. I assume that the forged blade is carbon steel whereas the regular product is a stainless.


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Old 12-11-2002, 06:25 PM
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Roger Gregory Roger Gregory is offline
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A couple of observations, ignore at will

Sabatier is a pattern rather than a trade name. Someone let that slip too long ago so plenty of makers use the Sabatier name now, some are good, some are rubbish....

A lot of kitchen knives in my experience have been very soft. I think part of the thinking there is to make them easy to resharpen. Always being able to put a razor edge on a knife is more important than keeping an edge for more than a few days - to some people. Or the manufacturers are using steels which won't harden past RC45......

Roger


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Old 12-23-2002, 12:32 AM
Jason Cutter Jason Cutter is offline
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Lightbulb Agreed

My early customising work was on kitchen knives. There are decent knives out there and then again, there are some shockers. The already-mentioned ideas hold true - kitchen knives nowadays are likely to be used by "non-knife" folk who would quiver and curl into a fetal position if they had to sharpen a knife. The solution is to make it quite soft. the advantages are 2fold - aside from a happier, less scared customer, these people are also more likely to "abuse" a fine knife, so make the blade a little tougher.

My undersanding of some of the high-alloy steels is that hardness and wear resistance are not the same thing - might explain the difficulties on the grinder with some steels.

Apparently some major cutlery firms forge stainless steel as well. I think Mundial uses forged 440ZH or something like that, which seems simialr to the low-end 440series stainless steels.

A couple of the steels coming out of Japan measure up in the 64-68Rockwell range !! Could it be a laminated blade with one of those super-steels sandwiched inside. Mind you, I sharpened a friend's $450 damascus clad Japanese cleaver with a so-called ultra-high-tech VG-10 core - it would hold and edge for a few seconds only when chopping. Edge was soft as .... Using a honing steel on it would put dents in the edge. Possibly someone missed the heat treat cycle ???

SCANDAL - many of the el-cheapo firms use 8/18 stainless which is of the 410-series - full of chrome and nickel to make their serrated knives. If they kept sharp for a long time, would you need to buy another one from them ? They are using the same steel as the pot to make the knife ...

Its the throwaway age, my friends.

Jerry, I reckon you're spot on. Make her a nice knife and show her the error of her ways.

Cheers.


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Old 01-01-2003, 07:07 AM
Jan Dox Jan Dox is offline
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What I learned from the brochures from several reputed (German) kitchen cutlery companies is that the alloy they use is not very high(for us knife-nuts), either for the forged upper line (with integral bolsters etc.) or the economy-lines.
I have the DREIZACK-Solingen flyer at hand:
The steel is X 50 CrMoV15 (0.5 carbon; 15%chrome and less than 1% moly and vanadium) comparable with 420 with added moly and Vanadium, in German alloys its probably 4034, depending on the maufacturer of the steel. maximum working hardness is around 54 to 55 HRC. I have my kitchen knives in 4034 hardened at that hardness and I'm very satisfied with it.
In the kitchen it is easy to maintain a wicked edge without too much touching up with a steel or sharpening on the stone..(Tomatoes cut with a single stroke and almost no pressure)

Professional cooks and butchers steel their knives a lot.

In the controlled environment of the kitchen I prefer the softer agressive edge of a steeled knife and for working and allaround use a harder egde up to the 60-61 HRC on my D2 knives.

Jan
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Old 01-01-2003, 03:29 PM
Jason Cutter Jason Cutter is offline
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Thumbs up Thanks for that Jan

I found something similar on Mundial's website. Then other thing with most alloys is that with lower carbon, you also get increased stain resistance if the chrome content is already above the magical 13-14% mark. 0.5% carbon is about just enough to harden.

You also pointed out a very pertinent issue. I watched a butcher at work once. Of course all his knives were standard commercial butchers blades. He worked fast but he would almost ritually steel the blade quite aggressively on a hone about every 4-5minutes. The knife cut easily and he was happy with it. When I introduced myself as a knifemaker, he wasn't interested to even try anything more "high performance." His words were - "My knives hold a really good edge, I never have to sharpen them ..."

I guess some people are happy with the way things are and are so accustomed to how "it is" that they've already incorporated methods to overcome any drawbacks in the quality of the material.

I have been "working" alongside a colleague at my "other" workplace who is a professional hunter and venison butcher-shop owner. He buys my knives at a reduced cost and does my field testing for me. I'm no whizz at heat treatment but the caping and hunting knives I made for him, me he claims holds an edge up to 6-8x longer than his shop-bought butchers knives. And thats just plain old O-1 carbon steel, HT in my workshop, single quench, single temper, convex edge - nothing fancy. Just about any knifemaker could make a knife that would do that.

I wonder if custom knifemaking has adequately penetrated the professional culinary market and I wonder what the perception would be ?

Cheers. And welcome to '03, y'all.


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Old 01-02-2003, 05:42 PM
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Jerry Oksman Jerry Oksman is offline
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Jason, I think the big issue is cost. Most restaurant people are not going to pay out for a custom chef's knife when even factory good knives are running $50 - $150. I bought a custom Chef's knife for $350 (it was dressed up not plain) but I still don't see regular cooks and regular people paying out the money. They can't justify the cost to themselves. Same reason that many won't buy a custom knife of any type.


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Old 01-02-2003, 07:43 PM
Jason Cutter Jason Cutter is offline
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Thumbs up Yup, sounds right

Fortunately for me, I have a couple of "faithfuls" who put performance over price. Mind you, my work is not particularly high-end, in both price or looks, just works well enough, I reckon.

I think another reason makers get into making chef's knives is to go the opposite direction of the old tactical ... fighter etc. direction, which is fine. I do both. Mind you, traditional Bowies and mediterranean dirks are really quite similar to French Chef's knives, just a bit thicker.

Cheers.


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  #11  
Old 01-06-2003, 01:23 PM
Jan Dox Jan Dox is offline
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A lot of pro's in the food department easily maintain their edges by steeling and they don't see that as "sharpening".It's a natural movement for them.
Give them a "harder" blade to sharpen and they cannot get it right or complain about it being hard to do. They love and live with the wire-edge of the softer blades.
Remember how hard it was when we sharpened our first "good" knives; It took practice before we got it right too.
A softer hunting knife can't keep its edge against hide, hair and the rest in the field.It isn't handy steeling a four inch blade with a pocket steel every couple of minutes.
In the old days it was the only way for most folks out there.
The few good knifemakers got legendary in the old days with blades with the qualities we love in a blade. Most "magic" about those blades is gone now because we know so much more
about what the maker or smith has been doing to get there.

Jan

P.S. I think we're spoiled now.
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