MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > The Newbies Arena

The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-27-2006, 06:14 PM
Billl223 Billl223 is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Worcester, PA
Posts: 35
Solder versus J-B Weld

I've put together a few purchased blades soldering guards and J-B Welding bolsters. I'm definetly a better gluer then solderer. What are the advantages of solder as compared to J-B Weld?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-28-2006, 08:10 AM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
I think I would ask "what are the advantages of JB Weld over solder?". Solder is probably stronger but neither guards nor bolsters require much strength from these materials (always use pins with bolsters). Solder can leave flux in the knife which can corrode the knife later. Solder is a better color match than JB Weld but with a tight fit that isn't much of an issue. JB eld doesn't heat up the blade and is much easier to clean up ....


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-28-2006, 08:44 AM
B. Buxton B. Buxton is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kaiser,MO
Posts: 356
Myself and another maker discussed this a few weeks ago. We feel that JB weld has become an easy fix instead of taking the time to learn how to solder correctly, which in turn shows better quality and craftsmanship. Sure as Ray said, these areas don't require the true strength of solder but quality craftsmanship requires the best we can perform. The reason JB weld has become so acceptable, is because we've allowed it to be, not because its the best way to do it. Now don't go and jumb my case, I've used both, but 99% of the time I prefer solder joints in my work, sure it takes longer to apply, and clean up but when I make and sell a piece I want it to be the best I can produce and I feel a soldered joint is the better.

Again this is just my opinion, and we all have one.

Bill


__________________

www.geocities.com/buxtonknives
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-28-2006, 10:48 AM
Dan Graves Dan Graves is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: shreveport, La. 71105
Posts: 991
As a maker for 17 yrs. I used soldier for 14 yrs and switched to JB Weld. Here is why. (Trick was passed down from Jerry Fisk thru Terry Primos) A sealant. Plain and simple, it seals the knife from corrision. Yes you can say that soldier does, but with soldier, air bubble can occur and trap flux and during cleanup will get exposed (sometimes cant see with the naked eye) and allow the flux to act as a corrisive on the blade. It can occur on the top side or bottom side of the guard. It might take a month but it will show up and on the inside could cause a problem. As far as strength, it is not considered as fit and pins determine that. Just my 2 cents.


__________________
Dan Graves
www.theknifemaker.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-28-2006, 11:54 AM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
I agree with Bill that solder is the classier method. I harp on people to learn to grind free hand all the time but I've never learned to solder guards very well. Part of the reason for that is that many of my guards can't be soldered - they made from aluminum. That's still another advantage for JB Weld, it will work with most any material ........


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-29-2006, 06:48 PM
Josh O Mason's Avatar
Josh O Mason Josh O Mason is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Send a message via Yahoo to Josh O Mason
I've never made a knife with a guard on it before. I'm a newb, and all my stuff has been cord wrapped, or just handle slabs.

I saw a tutorial by Terry Primos on solderless guards, and it looked so #### easy to do... and I'll tell you what fellas....If JB Weld is good enough to use on Terry Primos' awesome knives, then screw a bunch of soldering. I'm going with JB weld.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-29-2006, 08:32 PM
B. Buxton B. Buxton is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kaiser,MO
Posts: 356
Josh, thats the nice thing about knifemaking there are several ways to get to the finish line and there really is no wrong way just as long as you do your best and try to improve with every piece. All I can say is don't let others opinions turn you away from other options and techniques. Dan's opinion is that soldered joints are inferior because flux will cause problems, I have knives that are 10 yrs old laying around with soldered guards and they have no corrision problems at all. A person can do however he sees fit but if you take the time to learn different techniques you'll be wiser for it.

Have fun, knife making can be a every day learning experience.

Bill


__________________

www.geocities.com/buxtonknives
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-29-2006, 09:48 PM
tmickley's Avatar
tmickley tmickley is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North Mankato, MN
Posts: 0
I prefer JB Weld myself and I can solder a joint but I don't like the clean up and don't like the process -- it's a pain.
Bill makes some good points about using solder. I remember very well my grandfathers 2 favorite hunting knives both had flux corrosion from the bolsters. It didn't affect the performance at all but it looked ugly. I always picked the knife with the least corrosion to carry as a kid when I went deer hunting with him. To be fair, a custom knife today made by a competent maker, like Bill, will never have a problem with flux corrosion.
My grandfathers knives were circa WW2 commercial production Buck knives.

I guess that is one reason why I prefer JB Weld but mainly I think JB seals a bolster very well and I am comfortable about how long it will last.

Personally, I think a knife maker that wants to be well rounded, shouldn't shy away from practicing soldering until they can do it. I burned up a lot of flux and solder learning how. Now I use a heat gun instead of a torch. When i used a torch I'd get too hot and burn up the flux half the time. A heat gun takes a few minutes longer but I can control the heat much easier.

If you are going to solder stainless, clean, clean, clean the joint....
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:47 PM
McAhron's Avatar
McAhron McAhron is offline
Living Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Under the Redwoods in Beautiful La Honda CA
Posts: 1,642
I like J-B Weld.It seals well and can be colored using dies or powdered metal.It is no fix for a sloppy fit though.Gaurds should be tight going on and on mine I prefere a press fit.For bolsters the pins are the strength so the fit is the important part.JMHO


__________________
N'T McAhron Sqwaukin Vulture Verrinder
"to create is to make art"
TREMBLING EARTH KNIFE WORKS
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:49 PM
McAhron's Avatar
McAhron McAhron is offline
Living Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Under the Redwoods in Beautiful La Honda CA
Posts: 1,642
For habakis,blade collers,and other things that need a strong bond for strength I use high temp silver solders applied with a jewelers torch.


__________________
N'T McAhron Sqwaukin Vulture Verrinder
"to create is to make art"
TREMBLING EARTH KNIFE WORKS
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-30-2006, 05:00 PM
Terry Primos's Avatar
Terry Primos Terry Primos is offline
Founding Member *Sys_Admin*
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 1,240
It's all good. The thing that counts is having a good fit before you use either one to seal the joint. Good fit is what shows your skill, not whether or not you can do a good solder joint. Actually I do occasionally use solder on guards. When I do I use Tix solder. It's a low temperature high strength solder. It melts at about 250 degrees F.

I don't use JB Weld on full tang knives where the guard slides up onto the knife from the bottom of the ricasso. I don't use JB Weld on a knife with bolsters. I do use it on hidden tang knives, which is what I make 99.999% of the time. It is very well suited for the etched blades that do, as well as damascus blades and/or damascus guards.

Again, the fit is what's key. If I have a very slight gap I can hide it with solder. That's not the case with JB Weld. If you choose to use JB Weld to seal the joint, the fit has to be right. There's no hiding it. So it's not an easy way out. JB Weld may be acceptable because we've allowed it, but it's been accepted a long, long time. I've been using it since I learned it from Jerry Fisk in circa 1996 / 1997. I don't know how many years Jerry had been using it before he showed me, but he learned it from Harvey Dean. I have no idea how long Harvey Dean had been using it before he showed it to Fisk, and I don't know if it was Harvey who came up with it, or if someone else showed it to him.

There have been some extremely well known makers who's fits were so close they used Epoxy to seal the joint. One of the more new wave methods is to use either Epoxy or Acra-Glas in conjunction with atomized steel or aluminum. I can't give you any first hand info on that since I haven't tried it, but it sounds intriguing. I can tell you that the atomized metals can be obtained from Brownell's.

Yet another way of sealing the joint is by brazing. I was looking at one of the knives in B.R. Hughe's collection a couple of weeks ago. It was an early Jimmy Lile hunter. It had a brass guard and had a brazed brass joint.

Back before solder even existed, the joint was sealed with pitch. A lot of the Neo-Tribal boys still use that method. It works. I don't knock anybody's method. If the fit is right, it's going to look good and work.


__________________

Click the banner above to visit my website

Last edited by Terry Primos; 03-30-2006 at 05:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-30-2006, 05:42 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
Living Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Primos
....... I've been using it since I learned it from Jerry Fisk in circa 1996 / 1997. I don't know how many years Jerry had been using it before he showed me, but he learned it from Harvey Dean. .......
I first learned that technique back in the mid-80's from Ed Brandsey using Duro aluminum-filled cement. No telling how long it'd been around before that. Sealing guard joints goes a long, long way back in history.

What you said about fit is really the key, Terry, for either technique. The JB Weld is immensely popular because of it's ease of use, notwithstanding proven effectiveness if done properly. I was at The Badger Knife Show last weekend and I can't tell you how many pieces I saw with a too-large bead of JB Weld showing around the entire perimeter of a poorly fit guard. That was ugly, because you could tell it was sloppy work. To be honest, I think people should be embarassed to show that kind of work.

One of the keys to not getting flux pockets in solder joints is to not use a large excess of flux; it's a known cause of the problem. Trying to overcome a poor fit by slopping in solder is another way to get the pockets. If the solder is wicked from one edge to the other in a very tight joint, pockets seldom result because the solder just pushes it ahead.

My only real question about the two is whether JB Weld might not crack a lot easier than solder from a good accidental clout on a guard; depite a handle behind it, there might still be enough give to crack. Just a thought.

Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by fitzo; 03-30-2006 at 05:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-30-2006, 06:16 PM
Josh O Mason's Avatar
Josh O Mason Josh O Mason is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Send a message via Yahoo to Josh O Mason
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzo
I was at The Badger Knife Show last weekend and I can't tell you how many pieces I saw with a too-large bead of JB Weld showing around the entire perimeter of a poorly fit guard. That was ugly, because you could tell it was sloppy work. To be honest, I think people should be embarassed to show that kind of work.

To be honest along with you, I know what you mean, and I'm embarrassed for those people. I'm a total newb, and I'm still working on some knives that look better than some I've seen for sale. Hate to sound like a prick, but it's true. I would be totally uncomfortable showing or selling something with my NAME on it that was sloppy, or unreliable like that. I just couldn't accept that from myself, and be content with something that was just half assed like that.

But anyway...Terry, I payed really close attention to the part of your tutorial where you have to make the fit really tight and precise. I think I'd rather spend a little more time being really careful with a file, making everything clean and square, and applying JB Weld, rather than risking burning my steel (or myself) up with a torch and solder.

Just how I feel about it. I'm new, and the solder is just a bit intimidating to me at this point. Not knocking the method at all, or you guys who use it.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-30-2006, 06:32 PM
McAhron's Avatar
McAhron McAhron is offline
Living Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Under the Redwoods in Beautiful La Honda CA
Posts: 1,642
Another technique I have theorized uses a jewelers laser welder(they cost around 30,000 so dont even imagine owning one).I think it would make a fantastic joint!


__________________
N'T McAhron Sqwaukin Vulture Verrinder
"to create is to make art"
TREMBLING EARTH KNIFE WORKS
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
blade, fixed blade, knife, knife making, knives


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:18 AM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved