J.English & Hubers and the Bowie Brothers

[hammerdownnow]

Ed Fowler brought up the subject of the English & Hubers Bowie in the Lies and Legends thread. He was good enough to send me an article written by Dr. Tom Stapleton on how we "Almost" had a production bowie designed and sanctioned by Rezin and Jim Bowie. I put the article up in a PDF file for those interested to read and comment on.

Dr. Stapleton article(clickhere)

Below is the post that Ed made the offer to send out the article and a discription of the contents.

LIES LEGENDS AND TALL TAILS THREAD

#76 05-24-2006, 09:02 PM
Ed Fowler
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Riverton Wyoming
Posts: 43

Thanks for the help Hammerdownnow, It took me a while to figure it all out, but got it set right.

I found the information on the Huber Bowie, it is owned by Dr. Tom Stapleton. He did a lot of research on the knife and I tend to agree with his findings. Rezin and Jim Bowie went to Phiadelphia to see an eye doctor. While there they located a knifemaker to provide knives for the 'Texas Troopers'. It would have had to be an outfit with fairly large production capability. According to Dr Stapleton they contacted the "J. English and Hubers" outfit also known as the "Sheffield Works".

The knife that Dr. Stapleton own once belonged to kMr. Norton Asner, who sold it to Dr. Jim Lucie, who sold it to Dr. Stapleton. The inormation is extensive and if anyone is interested in the material I will have some copies made and mail them to you. Just maybe someone who knows computer stuff a little better could post it for all to read.
__________________
Ed Fowler

[hammerdownnow]

My good buddy Fitzo was kind enough to send me this beautiful pic of two J. English & Huber Bowies from the Norm Flayderman Bowie Book.

sourse to purchase the book

[Chris Meyer]

Here's a pair from The Antique Bowie Knife Book, pages 47 and 49. I left them large in case anyone needed good pictures of them. If they are too large to work with, please let me know and I will resize them.

[dave Stifle]

Great pictures of some timeless knives! Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the pics, it looks like they did a slight grind on the flats as I see two plunge lines. By the way, I've made knifes with handles like those, and they are very comfortable to the hand.

Regards,

Dave

P.S. this is a very interesting forum

[hammerdownnow]

Thanks for adding those photos Chris. Anyone read the text in the link? Any thoughts? those blades do look like they are hollow ground on top and bottom. What do they call that, A saber grind?

[Ed Fowler]

I have heard it called double ground. Son't know if there is a difference between that and saber grind.

I have never seen a chip in a Huber Bowie, I hope that if they exist one will show up, maybe some great Hubers will show up here, I encourage anyone who has a Huber to post photos.

Thanks for posting the information and photos.

[dave Stifle]

I am equally interested in how these knives were made. Once forged out, what did they use to grind the blades? Stone wheels? How did they get the smooth finish? Also, what are the fittings made of? Common sense says silver or a siver alloy, but the fittings in the pictures sure looks like steel to me. Does anyone know what procedures they used for HT?

I suppose the double grind was done to reduce the weight of the blade. (It would also result in a really crisp grind line) The knives all look slightly blade heavy to me. Nowadays, all the makers and buyers want the knife balanced right in front of the guard, but I suspect, (and that is all it is) that the oldtimers probably liked the balance towards the front of the blade for more impact.

a lot of questions, huh? Sorry, but this is an area of fascination for me.

Regards,

Dave

[Chris Meyer]

Bruce Evans has a tutorial right here on the The Knife Network that shows him making a similar knife. He calls it a Cutlass Grind.
Cutlass Ground Blade.

[Ebbtide]

Isn't the Flayderman book wonderful?
I keep starting to actually read it but always get lost in the photos.

[Ed Fowler]

Bruce mentioned that he has made a Huber some years ago. For my money it is one of the great Bowies of all time. It has strength where needed and when adorned with the droped handle like the one in Dr. Stapleton's article is truely what meets my thoughts about functional knives.

[dave Stifle]

Darn! My computer won't open the artcle. Unknown format. Ed, the huber bowies in the pictures don't have dropped handles. I guess the article shows hubers with dropped handles? How can I get the article to open?

does anyone have pics of the Huber Bruce made? I am especially intriged by Ed's comment that it has strenght where needed. One of the great bowies of all time!! I want to see it.!

Also, now we know, saber or cutless grind, huh? Good to know.

Dave

[Ed Fowler]

Hello Dave:
When I opened it my comupter used Adobe. Maybe Hammerdown will see this and tell you how to make it work.

I wrote Bruce and asked him to post a photo for us. Bet he does.

The photo of the droped handle is in the Stapleton work. When you get to download it you will say wow!

[hammerdownnow]

Sorry, I don't know how to fix Dave's problem. I don't know if you need the free trial Adobe downloaded or not.

Is this the knife you are talking about?

[hammerdownnow]

In the article Dr. Stapleton speculates that the Huber style was the model used by the Sheffield England cutlers to define their take on what a bowie should look like. If that is true, would that mean that one or more examples would have been shipped to England around that time? Is the hardware hollow on the Hubers like it is on the Sheffield England bowie's?

[Ed Fowler]

That is the Bowie I am speaking about.

A lot of our homemade bowies were purchased by visitors from England and taken back to England, copied and enhanced and shipped back to America and other countries. Very few of our industry could keep up with the demand for Bowies, we were a ready market for the Sheffield industry. The Bowie was the 'hula hoop' of the times and knew a great demand.

The Sheffield Bowies were beautiful, but I question their quality as a dependable weapon, many of their sheaths were pressed paper and would not have stood up in the tough world of the frontier. Many of their blades that knew some hard work have chipped edges and broken blades. There were probably some good ones, but I feel that many were designed to fill the immage the Bowie knew and great demands were not made of them.

Even the mountain men purchased them, one story I read told of one of the well known mountain men who was slapped on his side by a Grizzley, he was a long time healing as he was hit hard enough that his blade broke being between the grizzley's paw and his side in its sheath. I do not feel that one of our knives made by Aimes or Huber or any competant bladesmith would have broken.

All too many of the Sheffield blades have the dropped edge, If any remember the TV classic "Centenial", McKeeg (I believe that was his name) got into a knife fight with his partners half breed son. The son stuck McKeeg with his knife, the knife stuck in him and the half breed could not withdraw his knife. An old and wise man who witnessed the fight and with all the wisdom of man working around a design fault said "When you stick a man with your knife, Never stick him to the hilt". That statement meant a lot to me. Can you imagine being in a knife fight and pulling your punch? This is why I figure the men who carried most of the Sheffield Bowies with the dropped edge were not supreme knife fighters, only those who knew no better about knife design.

The Sheffield knives were a significant part of our history and have their value, I feel that they were made to the demands of those who loved the immage, but were not highly trained or skilled knife fighters.

If Jim Bowie was the knife fighter I feel he would have chosen the Huber over most of the Sheffield knives to equip the Texas Volunteers.

The Huber, Like the Aimes Rifleman's knife is designed by someone who knew well the needs of a man who needed a working knife.

I could have owned the knife Dr. Stapleton purchased from Jim Lucie. I held it in my hands, fell in love with it, but could not afford to own her. It is a good thing because Dr. Stapleton invested the time into learning about her and brought a great deal of knowledge to light. I would have just kept her and praised her attributes without being able to research her as Dr. Stapleton did. He did a good thing for the History of the Bowie.

I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to see Dr. Stapletons work available to all who wish to learn and all I can say is thanks.