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The Sheath/Holster Makers Forum This is the place to discuss all forms of sheath and holster making.

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  #16  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:26 AM
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Schwert just asked a question in an email--how does the vinegar alter the Ph in the leather, and will it affect blades. Answer: I don't know. Maybe a pet/aquarium store water testing kit could help, unless someone has already done this test. Chuck?
Mike


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  #17  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:27 AM
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baking soda
After ya dye with vinegar, ya dump baking soda on to stop the reaction. be liberal with it (hey it's cheap! better safe than sorry)

Chuck will know more he actually did it, instead of just reading the posts making notes, but always forgetting to buy steel wool! LOL

Lara


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  #18  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:28 AM
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Just doing a little research about this dye, as I think it would be neat to use on my kangaroo lace.

Steel Wool + Vinegar ==>Iron (II) acetate (aka Ferrous Acetate)

Iron (II) acetate + Tannic Acid ==> somehow makes black leather.

Not sure what the actual reaction is here but apparently it is a chemical reaction not a "dye" that is making the leather black.

This is indeed neat. When I braid two colors (tan and black) I always gets loads of bleed across which muddies the braid. If I could get black soft workable lace with this dye I would prefer to use it.

Acetic acid is volatile and will depart from the leather over time so the pH concern may not be warranted. Neutralizing with baking soda would be a good idea if the leather does not mind.


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  #19  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:29 AM
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The Vinegar/Steel wool "dye" usually doesn't completely penetrate the thicker leather used in sheath making, at least in my experience. I always color the inside of a sheath with regular dye and seal it well anyway. The baking soda shouldn't cause any problems other than maybe pulling some of the oil out of the leather. I've never used it as I always hang the sheath in the air for several days anyway. If you open your jar of "dye" for a while and let it breath some of the odor will be dissipate especially over time. Just don't let it evaporate completely.

Mike - It makes a nice black for sure, but I prefer shades of reddish brown so I'll put up with stained fingers. (the stains on mine are permanent by now anyway)

Might be worth a try to soak some steel wool in rubbing alcohol and see what happens. The water in the alcohol may cause the steel to rust in the same way that the vinegar does and then there would be no concern about acetic acid leaching through to the blade.


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  #20  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:31 AM
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The colonial gun makers used vinagear and iron filings to stain stocks. The vinagear was full strength. A little iodine willgive a red tint.


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  #21  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:32 AM
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It would be interesting to try the rubbing alcohol test, but you would be using iron oxide instead of iron acetate. My guess is that the color reaction may require the acetate form of iron to work.

Schwert


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  #22  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:33 AM
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From what I remember,,, Iron acetate + tannic acid will give you iron tannate - which (surprise!) - is black. So I don't think that trying to get steel wool to rust in rubbing alcohol (sanity check - is that isoprpanol/isopropyl alcohol?) is going to do too much.

Of course, I could be wrong...

I've just started playing with the iron/vinegar mix - I'm using distilled malt vinegar (colourless, no caramel) that I pickled some forged stuff in to start with. Since then, I've thrown in a load of filings as well. Put the whole lot in a water bath to speed up the reaction... Which gives off a moderate amount of hydrogen, so don't cap the jars too tightly!

Early tests have the stuff going all the way through 8Oz leather, which is impressive. I'll have to have a play and see what sort of pH I end up with over time both with & without the neutralising.

Fun stuff - and I definitely get much better results than trying to use spirit dyes!

BTW - brief googling gave me this site on dyeing.

Peter

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  #23  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:34 AM
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I've been using the vinegar/iron dye for a few years now. Works great as has been indicated above. I inadverdently dripped some "descaling solution" (white distilled vinegar) from a blade I was descaling onto a piece of scrap leather I use for clamping and got the blackening effect. Coincidently around the same time someone posted on one of the forums about the use of said phenominon(sp?). I'm sure the ancients used this method as nothing is really new under the sun is it?
Been using it ever since and like it alot. It gives a nice soft black stain that goes deep. Ask Dana Acker how he likes the look and feel. His IITH knife has such a sheath.
I do the same as Chuck and let mine air dry for a couple of days before I complete the sheath and seal with the B-wax/neatsfoot oil dip-n-bake procedure. Have not had a blade react negatively to the process and all my blades are forged hi-carb. Did a lithmus test for kicks and all was well.
Never had to add steel wool, enough iron in the scale. It will also blacken through chemical reaction with many woods due to the presence of the tannic acid, ie.- oak, hickory, maple, etc.
Word of caution....don't store or use near machinery as the escaping vapors will rust anything with iron in it. (Probably used to brown barrels for muzzle loaders in the past...I'll have to give it a try).
I store/use mine in a large 16" "canning" jar with the wire clamp and rubber gasket lid. Works great.

Carl Rx


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  #24  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:35 AM
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Peter welcome - glad that Googling brought you here.

Carl-
Thanks for the update re: the litmus hope that will put some folks mind at ease. I've never bothered as I have never had anybody yell and scream about getting a rusted blade. And no I DO NOT experiment on other folks goods - always try it out on my own stuff first. Still one can never be sure what may happen over time.


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  #25  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:36 AM
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Chuck -

I guess it's me not being clear again - the googling found a homestead site with dye recipes. I've been here for ooh, months now... I just lurk more than I post.

Peter

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  #26  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:37 AM
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Glad you posted. Can you give us the link for the homestead dye site?


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  #27  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:38 AM
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OK ,now talk about an unusual smell . I did the steel wool in [ a jar of Sweet Pickle Juice ] Ha ! Too lazy to go upstairs and get some vinegar. It was left to ferment or what ever for a week. By golly it worked great.
But smelled awful.
OK, then I let it hang for a couple days.. uh uh still I was smellig pickles.

I decided to use some Montana Pitch Blend as a sealer. [ Red Wing Shoe brand Water proofing for boots=same thing] Wow the combination of pickle smell,pine pitch smell,and an unrecognizable odor almost made me throw away the sheath.

The color was great , the thing looked good, and it was for a hunting buddy so I didn't pitch it.

He tells me other than smelling like a salad he likes the sheath. After a while the pickle smell faded.:evil

yahooty


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  #28  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:40 AM
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Dyeing site in plain text -

http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/chemical%20dyeing.htm

Some interesting bits and pieces there. More on wood finishing thatn leather, but it is all good info.

ATB,

Peter

PS_Bond


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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  #29  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:41 AM
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Thank you all for the reply! And about the brown dye, eiser tobacco or black walnut husks: what kind and concentration of the alcohol should be used?
The reason for asking - I never seen an ethanol for sale at Toronto, even denathurated (methylated), only at a liquor stores (40%?). A rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol is available at 70%.

I also bought the black walnut husks at the health store for the
next project, involving the dye from black walnut husks in water.
The same question, if anyone knows by any chance: for how long can be it stored and at the room temperature or at the cold? Is it necessary to add a some bacterial growth stopper, vinegar or else?

Thanks again,
Brett


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  #30  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:42 AM
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I generally use Isopropyl as it's easy to get and the least expensive. When I do use denatured I get it at a paint or hardware store.
Guess you guys don't have Everclear up there - It's a 180-200 proof straight grain ethanol that's available in most liquor stores down here in the States.

I don't have experience with the walnut husks, but with the tobacco it lasts a long time at room temperature. I usually mix up about a quart at a time and use it fairly quickly though. Make sure you strain it real well before using it - I strain it through a wire sieve and then take and strain it through cheese cloth or a coffee filter. (if you use cheese cloth you can squueze the dickens out of the "pulp")
Since this dye is mainly alcohol and also has a lot of nicotine in it (this is a pretty toxic mix so wear gloves and eye protection) I dont' worry about microbes


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