What makes and art knife?

[Ray Cover Jr]

I was looking at a site on the net the other day and I saw a bunch of knives for sale listed as art knives. Some of the knives I would whole heartedly agree they deserved that title. There were others that were almost on the level of a tactical knife that were being called "Art Knives"

This got me to thinking. How do we define "Art Knife"? What is it about some knives that earn them this distinction?

Is it the materials used?
Can we call "any" knife that is custom made an "art knife"?
Is it the overal design?

As embelishers we constantly have a hand in the making of "art knives". I would like you folk's oppinions on this issue. I think this a tittle that is too easily thrown around today. What do you folks thing? I would like to have a serious discussion about this.

Ray

[hammerdownnow]

If you go by the first definition in the dictionary, 1. Human creativity, then you have it in a nut shell. To me any object made, manipulated or changed to be more pleasing to the eye of the changer can be considered an expression of ones artistic sense.

Every human has artistic ability. From a red ocher hand print on a cave wall, to the ceiling in the Sistine chapel, art is a human condition. How much interest we can muster and depending how much lead paint we chewed off the windowsill while teething, dictates how far we can take our own individual hand eye coordination to express what is inside each of us.

[Jeremy Krammes]

I too think "Art Knife" is thrown around to much. I think the the word Art in general is just used to much. Most of what people call art, I think is just crap. But for knives I think there is a lot of gray area. Materials has alot to do with it being called an Art piece. If there is lots of damascus, gold, engraving, and filework it could be called Art. Basically a bunch of stuff you wouldn't want to scratch. In all "Art" is in the eye of the beholder, I have seen some knives that alot of people go nuts over, but I think they are so gaudy and just plane ugly. Just my opinion.

Jeremy

[SteveS]

I agree with the above comments. I'd like to add one other criteria: has to be original and the only one made.

OK That's two. But I just don't see how you could make 10 identical 'art' knives.

If I paid all those extra $$$ for an art knife, and then the same maker pumped out some more I wouldn't be so happy.

Just my thoughts.

Steve

[Tim Adlam]

To me, an Art knife is a concept that exists in the realm of the imagination.
The artist is the channel to the physical manifestation of the unseen.

The more one does what they love and loves what they do, opens the mind to
the endless possibilities that are available to all.
The more perfect picture visualized by the minds eye, the more refined the physical object becomes.
The resulting manifestation is not only a bewilderment to the viewer, but to the artist as well.

A poem by English poet Samual Taylor Coleridge sums it up best for me...

What if you slept?
And what if,
In your sleep
You dreamed?
And what if,
In your dream,
You went to heaven
And there plucked
A strange and
Beautiful flower?
And what if,
When you awoke,
You had the flower
In your hand?

[Tim Adlam]

So...an "Art knife" speaks to the viewer on levels that cannot be perceived by the eye alone.

[Jerry Oksman]

Hi Ray, this is a very interesting topic.

I think that "Art" knife like "Tactical" knife is a tem that has been coined to describe a very broad spectrum of items. So many knives do not pigeon hole themselves into any catagory and so a very broad term covers them. Just as with tactical knives, it is a generic term. At the basest level I believe an art knife is a knife that is not going to see use. Here it becomes the eye of the beholder, but the way I look at it is art knives are sculpture with an edge (pun intended). If you have an artwork, like a painting or sculpture, you take care of it, keep it out of direct sun, keep figers from touching it, etc. etc. The problem is that it really comes down to a personal opinion, and I don't think I have to explain opinions to anyone.

Like very many things it comes down to point of view. If we are talking amungst ourselves (the knife community) I think we have a better set of base line parameters to understand what we are all talking about. Our arguements tend to be about the details (the specifics) when we are dealing with non-knife people a wider view must prevail as they don't have the backround that we do. So who your asking makes a difference.

[Ray Cover Jr]

Jerry,

You hit on something that I think is the crux of the whole problem. To me it is a problem. We do not place enough value on our terms and definitions. We use them too loosely and without concern for the ramifications that may bring.

For example If I look the word "Woman" up in the dictionary one of the definitions is "a female". By that definiton my daughter is a woman. In reality she is not a woman but an eight year old little girl. She has a long way to go before she Becomes a woman. There are certain marks in her life that must happen before she can claim that tittle (puberty being one).

In the knife world, many a knife has a long way to go before it can rightly be called an "Art Knife". (or to better define it, a knife that is a "work of art")

I grew up in the knife world. My father was a guild member since I was a little kid, on top of that I have formal art training . I have taught art classes at both high school and college levels. Because of that background this has become a real concern to me.

In the Art world there are certain basic (even if unwritten) criteria that most agree on.
For example.

- The creative process definitely comes into play
- A High degree of craftsmanship in manilpulating materials.
- the ability to take the philosophy or concept in mind and make it a reality.
- mastery in manipulating the principles and elements of design (out of instinct or formal training)
- Not all would agree but to me visual aesthetics are very important.
- I don't agree but many say that comunicating and idea is a requirement.

- The materails themselves are not usually all that important beyond any symbolic purpose thay may have for being there.

When a judge is critiquing work for awards at an art show these are all things that come into play. In the knife world we do not seem to have any such concept about what a work of art is. We all have made jokes about gallery showings where this guy is going on with a line of uninformed BS about a painting to impress the girl next to him. Aren't we just as guilty?

If the definition of Art is "anything we make" then there is nothing that is not art except what occures in nature. If that is the case then there is Nothing special about a piece of art work. Thus, nothing special about an art knife.

Ray

[ddushane]

Ray, I don't usually chime in on discussions like this but thought I would this time. I agree whole heartedly on what you said,


"In the Art world there are certain basic (even if unwritten) criteria that most agree on.
For example.

- The creative process definitely comes into play
- A High degree of craftsmanship in manilpulating materials.
- the ability to take the philosophy or concept in mind and make it a reality.
- mastery in manipulating the principles and elements of design (out of instinct or formal training)
- Not all would agree but to me visual aesthetics are very important.
- I don't agree but many say that comunicating and idea is a requirement."

To me a knife can be a work of art without being an art knife. All of the things you've mentioned above come into play, at least for me they do. I try as hard as I can to make each of my knives a work of art in itself. But a work knife like one of my plain liner locks with no filework, no bolsters, and micarta scales can still have all of the qualities you've listed above and still not deserve to be classed with Art Knives even though in there own right if a person really puts there heart & soul into the knife can be a work of art. I hope this makes since. I try to make some really nice knives with high quality materials, beautiful damascus, pearl or mastadon ivory, filework on everything that can be fileworked , and have a really nice flow & aesthetic appeal to them and think that some have been blessed by our Father above to become a work of art but I don't think I've ever made a knife that could be classed as a Art Knife. Thanks for the thread, it get's us to thinking. Dwayne

[Jerry Oksman]

Ray, that's just it "definitions". I may not know what art is, but I know it when I see it (to paraphrase). Their are no specific definitions. If you take a tactical knife, all bead blast and Ti bolster and black micarta and replace the blade with damascus and the bolster with mosaic and the handle with pearl or ivory is this an art knife? I got to say I am not quite sure. It could be, but it may not be. You also get into the "craft" vs "art" debate. I have heard it said that art should not have a function beyond stirring the soul. Yet the purpose of a knife is to cut. It is an object that is functional. Is is art or is it craft?

[Ray Cover Jr]

Jerry,

We will not ever get away from the art vs craft debate in the knife world because we have both craftsmen and artist making knives.

Here is what I mean.

I will use my dad as an example. Dad has been making knives for years and has perfected what he makes. I consider my dad an extreme craftsman but not an artist. Why? It has to do with his philosophy and purpose for making a knife. My dad has knife "Models" that he makes. A customer can call up and order a "model 1" or a "model 2" and so on. The customer can have his choice of a variety of handle materials, steels, etc. Dad goes to the drawer where he keeps his templates, pulls out a "model 2" template, gathers up the customer's specified materials and he makes the knife.

Why would this be considered craft rather than art?

1. The creative process is missing. While dad designed the original pattern his designs are little more than his improvements on existing traditional patterns.

2. Dad's purpose for making a knife is to make a funtional tool that has good aesthetics and shows off his high degree of craftsmanship. He is not considering anything beyond function and craftsmanship. There is no inspiration beyond the desire to make a well crafted knife.

3. He has no idea, concept, or philosophical idea to express. No historical themes or conceptual ideas to articulate in his work. He just wants to make a high quality funtional tool.

4. As far as materials. Dad does not care how the customer wants the knife "upgraded" with materials. the customer can have what he wants for little more than the extra cost of the pricier materials. The materials of little more consequence than to "dress up" a simple knife.

That is why I consider Dad a craftsman. Dad would agree with me. I know because he and I have had these conversations in the past.



Dave Broadwell is a good enough freind of mine that he won't get offended at me for using him as an example.

A few years ago David an I did a sword as a collaboration piece. The whole idea started as a phone call in which David and I were talking about old comic book stories. One of us mentioned the old "Conan" and "John Carter Warlord of Mars" comics. One thing led to another and by the end of the phone call David had designed the sword in his head and I had designed the embelishment.

This sword ended up being one of the coolest art knives David has done (my oppinion). Why do I consider this project art and not a craft.

1. The creative process was involved from start to finish. the whole concept or idea was "If John Carter Warlord of Mars were to order a cutlass for war on Mars, what would I design for him." Much more was involved in the design of this project than going to the drawer and pulling out a template that hundreds of knives have been made from. This project was an original based on the artist inspiration.

2. David's purpose for making the sword was to create a unique piece inspired by boyhood nestalgia. He wanted to make what John Carter should have been carrying in the comic books. Yes David had purposed to make a well crafted piece but his reasons for choosing what he did went way beyond that.

3.Materials were chosen with more in mind than just making it pretty. John Carter's sword in the stories was made out of some kind of space material that would cut through anything. We do not have this material on earth but David had a custom damascus made to represent it. There was an intelectual purpose for choosing this special damascus. The same was true of the rest of the materials in the project.

4. David used the principles and elements of design with pure mastery to create this sword. It was a joy on the eyes to look at. It was not a piece you just glanced and said "that's nice". It was a piece your eyes admired.

This sword was an inspired work of art. It had an idea to express and the chioces of shape, size , materials, adornment, sculpting, all had an intelectual reason for being there. They all were chosen to add to the expression of that idea. The project went way beyond craft and was a one of a kind art knife/sword.


I think we can make a deliniation between the two. Yes, there will always be knives that fall into gray areas. Looking at the current knife market I thinks these "gray knives" are more the exception than the rule.

Ray

[Jim Small]

Gentlemen

"Not having to explain it.....is art"

Jim

[Ray Cover Jr]

So does that mean it is art up to the point that somebody has a question about it? In other words, does that mean, at that point it ceases to be art because we had to explain something about it?

Ray

[Jim Small]

Ray

This is a quote from an old art professor of mine at The University of Georgia. Actually I was in a art appreciation course that was required in the Journalism Department. I believe the year was 1966 or there abouts. Lamar Dodd was the instructor of the class. Mr. Dodd later went on to become the Dean of the University of Ga. Art School. As you can well imagine the discussions that went on...and the topic came up " What is Art". We beat that topic to death for about 3 days. No one really came up with an acceptable answer, at least, one the whole class would agree on. So, Lamar Dodd said....." not having to explain it...is art"

I graduated after serving four years in the service of our country.....I finished at the University of Georgia in 1972... and I have to be honest with you I am not sure what it means........
Mr. Dodd died a couple of years back, by the way he was a fine artist in his own right, and I saw him many, many times between my graduation and his passing. I never mustered up enough courage to ask him what he meant. I guess you could say he took it to his grave.
I still have good friends who were in that class and we never mention it....but I can tell you it has stuck with me all these years.

I have often thought, as mentioned before in this thread, art is in the eye of the beholder....but it just doesn't fit. I hope one of these days it will come to me....and in a flash I will understand....or maybe I really know what it means but I just can't explain it.

Beats me......All I know is...a great artist said it and it's stuck in my mind almost 40 years.


Yikes....this is to deep!

Jim

[Ray Cover Jr]

Jim,

It is deep. That's why we need to kick these things around from time to time. I realize it is a loosing battle to try to come up with a common definition. I have been in those same art theory type classes in college and we never came up with a common definition. But it was a usefull excersise.

Since experiencing those situations it has made me think and evaluate my work beyond just "is it pretty".

Seeing the plain jane folders being called "art knives" the other day made me think again. Does this person really view these as art knives or has he just called them that to sell them for more than he could calling them "Dress Tacticals" or "Custom".

I certainly don't have all the answers. I do think it makes us better at what we do and more consceintious about what we accept as art when we toss such topics around.

Ray